High efficiency boilers

Rob_17

I'm feeling kind of lost trying to find a high efficiency boiler to replace my existing 30 year old boiler. Most contractors seems to know about one system, but can't compare it to others. Is there a clear-cut cream of the crop? If not, I'd appreciate input on the following:

Is there a *significant* difference between the Peerless Pinnacle, MZ Boiler, Weil-Mclane Ultra and Munchkin units
in terms of:

- reliability

- efficiency

- cost

- required maintenance

- installation (ie, finding a contractor who can handle the job)

Also, are there any other systems out there that would be equivalent to the ones I noted?

Thanks,
-Bob

heretic

2 are the same

Peerless and Munchkin are the same unit, just to narrow it down a bit for ya.

dconnors

Try looking at what Buderus offers at www.Buderus.net.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Condensing Boilers

We've installed about 30 Munchkins, 6 MZ's and 3 Viessmann Vitodens boilers and like the Vitodens best of all because of the operational advantages (i.e. modulating burner, quiet, etc.) and long term benefits (very few call-backs).

Two disadvantages to the Vitodens: they cost more than the rest and depending on where you live, it might be difficult finding someone who is familiar with them.

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R. Kalia_2

As I understand it, the Pinnacle and Munchkin are almost the same boiler, but the Munchkin has a proprietary control and reset system (Vision I). If you attach an external Tekmar reset unit to a Peerless Pinncle, you lose the burner modulation feature. (That's because the boiler's internal logic sees that its water temperature is always much lower than its aquastat setpoint, but it doesn't know that the Tekmar is aiming for a lower temperature, and so the boiler's controller runs the burners on full all the time. Maybe more than you wanted to know, but the message is, get a Munchkin instead.)

Some people here have knocked the Munchkin for being made with cheaper materials. It is claimed that it will need more service. The Ultra and Vitodens are more expensive. Viessmann is considered top of the line, but I priced one and found that I couldn't afford it.

Floyd_5

This Ultra....

has benn running nonstop for 11 months.....

in a pig barn.....

saves the owners $25.00+/day....

'nuff said

Floyd

Justin Gavin

What type of heating do you have

If your home is primarily baseboard or radiators than and you
replace your old boiler with a new condensing boiler you probably won't get a very good return on investment.

Reason being that your heat emitters (baseboards) are probably designed to run at higher water temps. If this is so than the efficiency gained with a condensing boiler becomes a non issue because of the higher temperatures.

While the modulation would be great it would take you many years to get back your return on investment. And by the time you do the added service costs would erase any savings you receive.

I would save your money and get a conventional boiler with an outdoor reset control if it were me.

Good Luck,

Justin

beeper

hummmm you could call tech support for some addvice and

direction on your quest for the best. 800-323-9651 go to 2 and you will be transfered to tech. see www.htproducts.com for more

Constantin

Allow me to disagree

I think the whole issue hinges on how "over-radiated" the place is. If the house has received any sort of insulation since it was constructed and since its heating system was probably oversized to prevent call-backs, you may very well be able to take advantage of modulation even on design days. And what non-condensing boilers offer true modulation?

In the meantime, during all the non-design days (which predominate 95%+ of the time), modulation + outdoor reset may very well be the ticket for comfort and cost savings. Whether the boiler condenses or not is icing on the cake. In an over-radiated home, my guess is that the return temperatures will be lower than you think.

But then again, I'm a mere homeowner who has simply read a couple of books. A little knowledge being dangerous and all that. Cheers!

S Ebels

If I were installing it in my house................

If I were to buy a condensing boiler for my own home, I would buy the Vitodens. Period.! End of statement. I would find a way to afford it. It is that good and that superior to any other condenser out there. (That ought to ruffle some feathers)

What false logic is telling you that you can't afford it? What did your last car loan cost you? How long will you own that car? Take out a loan for the Vito, pay it off in 4-5 and enjoy it for the next 20 years. Don't you wish that the car you're making $300-500/month payments on would last that long?

Just what will you enjoy with the Vitodens? Lower maintenance, lower energy costs, wonderful even comfort, longer equipment life, a complete boiler and integrated control package, (no issues of making this control work with that boiler) lower life cycle costs than anything other boiler I can think of.

Like many "better" makes of automobiles (think Toyota, Mercedes, Lexus) a Vito costs more up front but returns the difference in initial investment many times over its life.

I have a friend who owns a Toyota Land Cruiser. They cost $50K+ new. He has 160,000 miles on it and has not experienced a single mechanical failure. Just normal mainteneance items like brakes, filters and tires. Original plugs still in the engine. The thing feels like an M1 Abrams tank riding on silk bearings. No rattles, squeaks, vibrations or other signs of things coming apart.

In the 7 years he has owned it many people would have traded vehicles 2 or 3 times. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is spending less on the "expensive" Toyota than most would "saving" money on cheaper cars.

Same with the Vitodens. Do you hear where I'm coming from?

marc

wow

marc

i see the light

finally someone else can see through the fog, the vitodens, is by far the best condensing boiler, no doubt about it, install a few and you will see the light. i see so many h/o spending way to much on the kitchen, and **** about the boiler, most will have the kitchen remodeled in 4-6 years, meanwhile the vitodens is just busy heating your hot water and warming your toes, with no complaints, the bottom line is the almighty $$$$$$ lets see who is posting questions on servicing the vitodens this winter. let alone now, there are no problems with the vitodens. other than the learning curve for new installers, and viessmann will assist with this. marc

R. Kalia_2

I don't have a Land Cruiser

> I have a friend who owns a Toyota

> Land Cruiser. They cost $50K+ new. He has 160,000

> miles on it and has not experienced a single

> mechanical failure. Just normal mainteneance

> items like brakes, filters and tires. Original

> plugs still in the engine. The thing feels like

> an M1 Abrams tank riding on silk bearings. No

> rattles, squeaks, vibrations or other signs of

> things coming apart.


I have a 12-year-old Mazda Protege, cost me $12,500. Same thing, just normal maintenance, still as powerful and crisp as it was when it was new.

So tell me again why more money buys a better quality product. The only thing I know for sure is, spending more money buys a more expensive product.

Constantin

I think the car comparison is flawed...

... in 12 years, my Mazda left me semi-stranded only once... but I put lots of money into it... In fact, I probably put another Mazda into the Mazda by the time its life was ended by operator error (mine).

My current vehicle cost a multiple of what we paid for the Mazda, yet it has not been that much more reliable, because both were. On the other hand, my wife's new car has been disabled once and had a number of annoying issues along the way... Does this make it a worse car or does it simply reflect the teething pains many new complex products experience when they are unleashed on the world? Remember the "widespread" blower failures on Munchkins?...

Furthermore, there is no question that the current positions of various car brands in the heads of consumers allow them to charge more or less for fairly identical cars... Toyota and Honda actually make serious money on Sedan sales while Ford, GM, and Chrysler look on in envy. Were it not for SUV and pickup sales, Ford would be in a serious pickle because that's where all the profit comes from to subsidize the rest of the company.

Along the same lines, Viessmann has positioned itself as a premium brand... Weil-McLain and HTP are not in the same "premium-brand" pigeonhole as Viessmann but that does not mean that the Ultra or Munchkin aren't fine appliances for what they do, which is to reliably heat water in a safe and very efficient manner. Similarly, I would put a Viessmann or Triangle-Tube IDWH in a different category than HTPs simply on the basis of the HX surface sizes inside. That still doesn't mean that a Superstor can't do the job...

So I would like to focus on what actually distinguishes these appliances from each other. It is my understanding (and I'm perfectly capable of being wrong!) that the heat exchanger in a Vitodens weighs about as much as a Munchkin. Yet, that distinction does not show up in the AFUE test... according to Vitodens afficinados it shows up later on the fuel bill.

The Ultra has, IIRC, a aluminum heat exchanger. Some folks don't like it for that reason, which primarily should have to do with the water quality in a given area. Treat and monitor the boiler water correctly and the boiler should be fine, I would think. This is no different from systems like "glycolized" snow melting systems that also require similar vigilance against going bad.

However, as best as I can tell, there have been many posts here from ecstatic installers and homeowners who love a properly installed, condensing heating system. All three products seem to fit that bill.

So what does it all come down to? Well, I'm just a silly engineer homeowner that enjoys a well-engineered product. Perhaps this is why I would stick to the Viessmann product line. However, I would only make this choice if I had:

• a great Viessmann installer nearby to install the thing properly, and...
• more importantly, a great Viessmann maintainer who could keep it running like a top.

Preventative maintenance and proper installation are the keys to long, reliable equipment life. Thus, I would choose my appliance primarily along the lines of these two issues, not which allegedly is the best.

DaveGateway

Condensing on higher return temps?

What about claims from makers like Dunkirk on their Quantum Leap condensing boiler. They claim 90% plus efficency on 160° return water by using a secondary heat recovery unit. While not modulating, is the extra effciency worth the complexity of the system? I guess many things have to be looked at from total install cost to the design of the overall system. Might not make sense to put a top of the line Vie$$mann on an impropperly designed radiant or BB configuration.

Steve Paul

This Ultra

Floyd, I don't think I would want my Pigs to be near this boiler.This installation here in NJ would never pass inspection. There is no union after the gas cock, the junction boxes on the circulators are not covered and closed, the wires are hanging out and the pressure regulating valve is not supported,it is just hanging off the plastic tubing like a fart in the wind. Good thing you found all of these problems and corrected them.

Dave Yates (PAH)

It all boils (no pun intended) down to this.....

find a contractor who stands behind his work and then listen carefully to which of the products he recommends for your application. A great hydronics contractor almost never looks at a project with manufacturer-specific blinders on. Instead, they'll assimilate all of the details affecting an installation and then begin assembling components best suited for that application. Not unlike a great chef preparing a meal - it might be just beef that's cooking, but the sauces and manner in which it's prepared make or break the meal.

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hr

I'd have a hard time buying a V

from a contractor that doesn't have one installed in his own home or shop. If in fact they are THAT serious about the superiority and ROI

Walk the walk if you are going to talk the talk!

If a customer asks why you don't have a V in your own home, what do you say? I can't afford one only my customers can!Or should. Food for thought.

Now can I get a free V component (boiler or indirect would be fine) for my own home like many V contractors here, have

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

boilers

No-one has talked about the Trinty, is this boiler not as good, or to new on the market..

Paul Pollets

On The Money...

You've hit the nail on the head, Constantin, (and Steve E.) The cost of the appliance is directly related to it's features and benefits. Very few contractors (and homeowners, as a result) are looking that closely to see the real differences between the Vitodens and other condensing boilers. Yep, those differences cost more. Is it a better value to the customer? That depends on the contractor's ability to see and sell the differences.
"Preventative maintenance and proper installation are the keys to long, reliable equipment life..."

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Paul Pollets

Nothing is \"Free\"

The big V doesn't give away its products to dealers. You can get one at a 10% "personal use" discount.

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Kal Row

let me put it into perspective for you Bob

Don’t fret the brands, they are all great, and close in performance, quality, and reliability, and even the prices are starting to even out... even, vie$$mann (the Vitodens people) are supposed to have dropped one dollar sign

on the other hand, have fun, trying to find an installer, that’s even close to any of the brands quality and knowledge – now, that, is your real dilemma!!!

The only advice I can give you on that – is to show the “wall” to any perspective installer, and let them know that pictures and feedback will be posted here – nothing like peer pressure – to keep an installer in line!!!

that should scare away unscouplulus ones, and the good ones, post their stuff with pride. Just above, Floyd posted a work in progress, and STEVE jumped all over him, i have seen Floyd's finished work and it's booo-tee-full - but you see how peer pressure works!!!

S Ebels

OK 'nuther car..........

Another friend of mine, a prototype machinist by trade, German by birth, owns an 82 Mercedes diesel he purchased brand new. The car has 411,000 miles on it. He told me he has less than $1000 of repair costs into this car.

We installed a new boiler in his house last year. Guess what it was.

"You sometimes get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for". Someone here said that and it's very true.

Constantin

Totally agree...

... there is no question that it does not make sense to pair an awesome heating generating system with an awful heat emitting system. You simply cannot make up for lack of radiation surface area, imnproper radiator inastallation, lack of insulation, etc.

As for the extra complexity of the system, I wonder just how much more complex it is to add a secondary stainless HX to the whole system. Different, yes, but that much more complex? For a minute, consider all the self-diagnostics these more modern pieces of equipment handle and how much easier these data-loggers make the PM and maintenance guys life...

Lastly, I find some of the claims re: condensing @ 160°F hard to believe myself. On the other hand, I do not have the luxury of running out to a testing lab and checking for it myself...

Mitch_4

Any manufacturers claims

are verified. You can't write what you want otherwise there would be CHAOS ( I don't mean the agents from "Get Smart"(Love that show!))

By the way, the claim for the Quantum Leap is 95%, the Quantum is 90%

DaveGateway

Check the specs

A quantum leap will get 95% at 90° return temps. Just barely at 90% @ 150°

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I Must Agree with Steve

If your ultimate quest is efficiency, then the Vitodens has the ability to beat them all--hands down.

From the radiant burner to the control logic to the variable speed pump (built-in in some models), that thing is designed to deliver heat in the most efficient manner possible given the fuel.

Even with the lowly baseboard system, it's designed to MAKE low flow, low return temperature and high heat transfer (boiler delta-t) during all but the most extreme weather. The end user is encouraged to "play" (patiently) with both the slope and the shift of the reset curve. Why? Because it's about efficiency!

The problem with the Vitodens is that it's not designed for American systems with wall thermostats and multiple pumps.

The more simple your system (and TRVs do after decades of trouble-free use do qualify as "simple") the more you have to benefit.

S Ebels

Mine

Sure wasn't free!! If there's someone out there who did get a free one............ I've got some rep chewin' to do.

S Ebels

Good point Marc

I personally have heard of VERY few problems with the Vito and have had none myself. Programming adjustments, yes. They are pretty much a non issue as Viessmann is available 24/7 to talk you through that. Once you've done a few you learn what to look for.


As for high temp (170*+) applications, Viessmann doesn't recommend the Vito. This is due to the physical fact that the advantage of condensing almost disappears at that temp. Their feeling is that one of their more standard boilers would be a better "fit" for high temps as the condensing advantage is wasted.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

So Steve...What Makes a \"High Temperature\" System?

One example might be the ones I saw in London.

Standing iron radiators fed via ¼" pipes. Obviously these MUST be supplied with VERY hot water in LOW VOLUME. But just think of what happens to the return--it's going to be MUCH lower in temp (because of low volume) than the supply. I rather suspect that 50°-60° delta-t is the norm. If your supply temp is high at low volume and return temp low, does this qualify as a "high temperature" system?

I used to believe that fin baseboard immediately qualified as "high temperature". But that's high temperature at design--a design that everyone oversizes. Those who have put their b/b under constant circulation and reported here profess temperatures MUCH lower than the "design" temp. Supply temperatures (not to mention return) are almost always below 160°.

Tube-in-slab construction has always been designed around a low temperature--so low in fact that it causes other problems with conventional boilers.

Well-fitted, extruded conduction plate systems are proven when it comes to low temperature.

I won't even mention "how low can you go" when it comes to gravity conversions...

What do ALL of these systems have in common?

The ability to rapidly remove heat from the water!

The ONLY true high temperature systems are the bare-tube plastics below floors! They MUST have high temperature because they have so little ability to transfer heat to the occupied space. Such is fine in moderate weather, but when it gets cold? These are the ONLY systems that end users have complained here regarding "not enough heat" where everything in the system is working properly and per "design"!!!!! Plan, design, execute and INSULATE these systems well and they will be satisfactory--and even quite efficient with traditional boilers, but never consider a condensing boiler!

Modulate the burner and the flow and nearly every system can become "low temperature". Just forget about wall thermostats!!!!!!!!!!

Unknown

hr; No free V

Walking the Walk.

You can't be serious. "boiler or indirect many V contractors here, have:) Put me down for one 6-24C. LOL

Yes. I am in fact that serious about the Viessmann’s product’s superiority and ROI :

It’s hard to describe. I really want to tell the whole world about this difference. A BIG ONE. Just working with their raw materials with my own hands, laying the fingertips upon supplied equipment from Viessmann is always a pleasure. A blind man could tell the difference in what he was holding; Big V or the other. Like I said; It’s hard to describe. If I could hold and feel the hand of the God of hydronics; I’d reach out and clutch the heat exchanger of my Vitodens. Perfection is beautiful & I'm not looking to sell evry job.

If a customer asks me why I don't have a Viessmann in my own home;? I say; When I was young, I thought Buderus was the best. That’s what I have now and it’s darned good as well. We Americans are all still waiting for Buderus to let loose their wall hung condenser. Unfortunately, from what I’ve learned It’s just another version of what's all ready available for less money.

GO TEAM VIESSMANN

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hr

Gary, really now

> Walking the Walk.

>

> You can't be serious.

> "boiler or indirect many V contractors here,

> have:) Put me down for one 6-24C. LOL

>

> Yes.

> I am in fact that serious about the Viessmann’s

> product’s superiority and ROI :

>

> It’s hard to

> describe. I really want to tell the whole world

> about this difference. A BIG ONE. Just working

> with their raw materials with my own hands,

> laying the fingertips upon supplied equipment

> from Viessmann is always a pleasure. A blind man

> could tell the difference in what he was holding;

> Big V or the other. Like I said; It’s hard to

> describe. If I could hold and feel the hand of

> the God of hydronics; I’d reach out and clutch

> the heat exchanger of my Vitodens. Perfection is

> beautiful & I'm not looking to sell evry job.

> If a customer asks me why I don't have a

> Viessmann in my own home;? I say; When I was

> young, I thought Buderus was the best. That’s

> what I have now and it’s darned good as well. We

> Americans are all still waiting for Buderus to

> let loose their wall hung condenser.

> Unfortunately, from what I’ve learned It’s just

> another version of what's all ready available for

> less money.

>

> GO TEAM VIESSMANN

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



If I could hold and feel the hand of the God of hydronics; I’d reach out and clutch the heat exchanger of my Vitodens. Perfection is beautiful & I'm not looking to sell evry job

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hr

Gary, really now


You said


"A blind man
could tell the difference in what he was holding;
Big V or the other. Like I said; It’s hard to
describe. If I could hold and feel the hand of
the God of hydronics; I’d reach out and clutch
the heat exchanger of my Vitodens. Perfection is
beautiful & I'm not looking to sell evry job.
If a customer asks me why I don't have a
Viessmann in my own home;? I say; When I was young, I thought Buderus was the best. That’s
what I have now and it’s darned good as well. We
Americans are all still waiting for Buderus to
let loose their wall hung condenser.
Unfortunately, from what I’ve learned It’s just
another version of what's all ready available for
less money. GO TEAM VIESSMANN"

You didn't drink the kool aid did you?

How many blind men have you handed a Vitoden HX to?

And here I thought you were still a young'en

Could have sworn hb mentioned being "gifted" an Viessmann product for his home. Or did I imagine that?

In jest, of course

hot rod


HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



If I could hold and feel the hand of the God of hydronics; I’d reach out and clutch the heat exchanger of my Vitodens. Perfection is beautiful & I'm not looking to sell evry job

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don_48

Orange Coolaid

He,s been infected. No hope for him now. He's lost

heatingman

What A Mess

S Ebels

Mike

I've never seen a definition of what constitutes a "high temp" system per se. If I had to define it I would probably go with the German protocol of a max system supply temp of 165-170*.

I understand what you were talking about with the large delta T. Theoretically, with the right heat emitters connected, and the right flow rates, a person could design a system with a 100* drop. This would bring a boiler down into condensing territory even with a 200* supply. Even if heating the water back up to 200* in one pass through the boiler were possible, wouldn't you still have only half your heat exchanger in condensing mode?

On the basis of that observation, I would have to say that a true low temp system is one in which even the supply temps are below what it takes to condense your flue gases.
This would mean a radiant floor, a rad system designed to heat during design conditions with water temps of <140*. It certainly can be done. We've installed panel rad systems that never see 140*. I know of a large old home in Grand Rapids MI that is heated by a pair of 15-60 Vito's connected to 6-7 tons of standing iron. This system saw a max water temp of 136* last winter. It never left condensing mode. The HO told the installing contractor (an acquaintance of mine) that his cubic foot consumption dropped by a little over 50%. That is a fantastic number but I wouldn't doubt it.

Low water temps are the key to system efficiency. I can't comprehend why the DOE doesn't mandate water temps along the order of the European protocol. I guess that's a topic for another day.

ScottMP

Lets

get gone !

who said that ?

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[Deleted User]

my vehicles (personal)

2 chevy's 1 a camero 1984 all original except the usual, brakes,plugs, tires etc. 287,000, the other 88 blazer 4x4, 243,000 same thing. Its all maintenance (Like boilers)1 for summer and 1 for winter.

Unknown

True. I have been drinking from the orange fountain;-)

LOL

Have you accepted Viessmann as your Lord and saviour?

;-)

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Weezbo

*~/:)

shadrack meshack and abbendigo ....Way ahead of thier times. "I will not fear your firey furnaces"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

"Even if heating the water back up to 200* in one pass through the boiler were possible, wouldn't you still have only half your heat exchanger in condensing mode?"

That's a really good question, but I can only speculate how it might apply to the Vitodens with that return water "jacket" behind the primary HX coil. I suspect that the lower temp in there is responsible for much of the flue gas temp drop below dewpoint.

Check my post titled, "Flow in a Proportional System".

136° maximum supply is, daresay, expected.

50% reduction in fuel consumption? I'm trying for 55%--including reduced electric consumption--SERIOUSLY. This on top of a 40% reduction realized through insulation, weatherization, reset and TRVs. That's a 73% reduction in fuel use compared to original. When my highest monthly gas bill (unusual, bitter cold) was around $1,000.00 BEFORE gas price increased at least 70% we're talking some serious payback potential! When I started 10 years ago I wanted to heat this house for $200/month average during the heating season. Had gas not have risen so much in price, this would have happened already--now the cost of the Vitodens is justfied (well at least I'm willing to take the chance to find out for sure).