ventless gas stoves

tommyoil

All this talk of CO has reminded me of an incident.How are ventless gas stoves, you know, the wood stove look alikes, supposed to dispose of CO. I walked into a house where a "ventless" gas stove was hooked up. I left w/ headache after about an hour or so. When I mentioned the odor in the house to the people sitting in the living room where it was and suggested the possibility of CO, they more or less told me to hit the road. Their son(who seemed to walk on water)was a plumber and HE put it in so it MUST be safe. Maybe they are loaded($$$$$) and he is the only heir was my only thought. How are these things on the market? How could they be safe? Is it just me? or is something wrong with combustion equipment being "ventless". The debate continues.Could somone please explain to me the principle of ventless being no problem w/ regard to CO?

Weezbo

no.

Darin Cook_3

I would not want one in my house

They have a oxygen depletion sensor which is supposed to shut them down. The less oxygen present the more CO that would be produced from a poor burn. Those things will be outlawed at some point. There are many other things created from that combustion process including all the moisture ( can you say mold) that are released in the dwelling. You have to realize that there is still a ton of research going on with CO and the effects of low level long term exposure. They are linking alot of different illnesses to it now. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome is another serious one. They are finding that SIDS increases during the heating season. Alot of CO poisonings go misdiagnosed. The symptoms of CO poisonings mirror alot of other sicknesses. As research continues it will come out that the whole CO issue is much bigger than we ever thought. We simply did have not the technology to properly identify it or address it. That technology has only come out in recent years.




Hope this helps,

Darin

Mark Hunt

We call them


"Memory erasers".

"Acute CO poisoning" or prolonged, repeated exposure to low levels of CO can cause a myriad of health problems. Most of these will be misdiagnosed, as Darin pointed out.


Mark H

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Brian (Tankless)

Quote for Mark

Line from Robert DiNiro in "Ronin". (Fantastic movie)

"If there's any doubt, there's no doubt"

If there's combustion, there's CO, period, end of story...

If you don't test, you don't know. If you don't know, there's doubt.

I personally prefer my customers upright & breathing, with no runny noses or headaches, or worse.

Keep on keeping on, Mark.

Brian in Swampland.

Ted_4

Vent-free indeed!

> All this talk of CO has reminded me of an

> incident.How are ventless gas stoves, you know,

> the wood stove look alikes, supposed to dispose

> of CO. I walked into a house where a "ventless"

> gas stove was hooked up. I left w/ headache

> after about an hour or so. When I mentioned the

> odor in the house to the people sitting in the

> living room where it was and suggested the

> possibility of CO, they more or less told me to

> hit the road. Their son(who seemed to walk on

> water)was a plumber and HE put it in so it MUST

> be safe. Maybe they are loaded($$$$$) and he is

> the only heir was my only thought. How are these

> things on the market? How could they be safe? Is

> it just me? or is something wrong with combustion

> equipment being "ventless". The debate

> continues.Could somone please explain to me the

> principle of ventless being no problem w/ regard

> to CO?

Ted_4

Vent-free indeed!

It was once pointed out to me that when you operate an unvented appliance in your house, you are living in the chimney! I had the same headache reaction about ten years ago when I visited the showroom of the local gas utility where ONE unvented fireplace was in operation! How these things stay on the market escapes me. It seems that the family that told you to "hit the road" has already been affected by combustion byproducts!

Jack_21

I represent a line of \"vent free heaters\"

Rinnai. While I prefer the direct vent business, there are many who "want" VF heaters, as you found out.

They are approved and manuf as supplemental heaters only and as such should be used 4-6hrs per day. they are not intended to be used as a sole source of heat. Rinnai does not make the fireplace type units.

The bone I have to pick with VF is the oversizing which I feel is common on the fireplace units. If you look at the DOE sizing guidelines a 20x20x8'=3200cuft should, in Zone V, in an average type construction with a t-stat controlled unit allow 3.85BTU/cuft. That comes out at just over 12kbtu for the coldest zone in the country. BTU/cuft are less as you go south. Rinnai makes unit that will modulate from 2-6, 3-10,4-14 and 6-22kbtu. Modulates the burner and the blower. Proper sizing of these units is, in my opinion, critical...and sensible. If you look at the fireplace models they are pretty much all in the 25-35kbtu range. Keep in mind, big flame sells!

They are an excellent peak-shaving device. they are "another tool in the tool belt" of our industry...when you know the facts and apply them properly (no different than anything else, eh).

I do not, but should, have some links for info. I will get it and post them.

As far as the CO levels. I can run a "Silent Servant" model Rinnai, (properly sized and operated)for a month and make less CO tahn you will make with your gas range cooking the Thanksgiving turkey. That is true! This should be an interesting thread!!

Thad English

Ronin

That's the first thing they teach you.

jackchips_2

From one Jack

to another, thanks.

It's always good to get the facts and not hyperbole.

Ed_13

Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And is you still want to use a vent free product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm

Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm

Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free fireplace product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm

Why do you think that second site even exists. Because someone out there sees a large enough market for it. And if you install vent free fireplaces, you are part of their market.


Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then, other than a lot of lobying by gas supply companies and the manufacturers of vent free products?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free fireplace product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm


Why do you think that second site even exists. Because someone out there sees a large enough market for it. And if you install or service vent free gas fireplaces, you may have the dubious distinction of being part of their market. The operative term there is MAY. As Mr. Eastwood said "So do ya feel lucky"


Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then, other than a lot of lobying by gas supply companies and the manufacturers of vent free products?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free fireplace product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm


Why do you think that second site even exists. Because someone out there sees a large enough market for it. And if you install or service vent free gas fireplaces, you may have the dubious distinction of being part of their market. The operative term there is MAY.

As Mr. Eastwood said "So do ya feel lucky"


Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

My thoughts on Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then, other than a lot of lobying by gas supply companies and the manufacturers of vent free products?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free fireplace product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm


Why do you think that second site even exists. Because someone out there sees a large enough market for it. And if you install or service vent free gas fireplaces, you may have the dubious distinction of being part of their market. The operative term there is MAY.

As Mr. Eastwood said "So do ya feel lucky"


Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

My thoughts on Ventless gas equipment

In 1978 the CPSC already knew that ventless heater were a problem. What has changed since then, other than a lot of lobying by gas supply companies and the manufacturers of vent free products?

http://www.classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1978feb/78010.html


And if you still want to use a vent free fireplace product, then maybe you should also save the second link:


http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm


Why do you think that second site even exists. Because someone out there sees a large enough market for it. And if you install or service vent free gas fireplaces, you may have the dubious distinction of being part of their market. The operative term there is MAY.

As Mr. Eastwood said "So do ya feel lucky"


Regards,

Ed Carey

Steamhead

Be that as it may

any heater that is "vent-free", "ventless" "unvented" that does not vent combustion products to the outside is I-L-L-E-G-A-L in Baltimore City, and probably will be outlawed soon in the rest of the metro area.

We will not install these units anywhere. Period. End of discussion.

Jack, just out of curiosity, how much CO was found coming from one of your Rinnai units, not in the never-never land of the lab, but as actually installed and operated in someone's house, using an industry-standard combustion analyzer such as a Bacharach or Testo? I bet it's more than you think......

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Unknown

Gas Cooking Ranges

have been vent free for years. The average gas range burns 65,000 BTU's when fully operational. The ANSI standard for allowable CO in the flue gas of an gas oven is 800 PPM. You are not going to see gas ranges banned that is for sure as it is the most popular way to cook in America.

Decorative appliances are the fastest selling and largest selling appliance in America today. Many of them are ventless. The people who produce these have a very strong lobby in places where it counts. They are I am sorry to say not being banned but areas that would not allow them now do.

It is an uphill battle and if you are going to take up the fight get out your checkbook and I hope you have millions cause that is what it will take. The gas industry loves them becuae they use a lot of gas and do very little in many cases to add any heat at all to the overall heat demand of the dwelling.

There are many very good heaters in this decorative appliance market. They are not unvented so be careful when you say ventless. Ventless means they are free standing in a room with no vent at all but the room itself. The instructions for many of them tell you to operate them with a window open DUH why if I want to get warm do I want to open a window???

When I was with the gas company we tested several brands of these heaters. In addition to high levels of CO2 spewed into the room (which can eventually become CO) if you knock them over they do not shut off. Some are required to be mounted to prevent this. I have also seen ODS not work as designed which is to shut down if O2 goes below 18%.Simple rule for me NOT IN MY HOUSE!!!

Jack_21

I've seen...

with a UEI CO detector, on the "Silent Servant" line of Rinnai's anywhere from 2-5ppm. Keep in mind, that is not the log set/fireplace type vent free. Something else I left out of above post. You need to clean VF htrs. if you want a stinker just burn off the summers dust at the beginning of the season. Keep them clean (compressed air), adequate combustion air and don't overuse them and they do really well...properly sized. A dirty unit will stink, for sure!

Thing is, you have to remember that we have taken the technology of the thermos bottle and applied it to home construction and up here, we close our doors in Oct and basically don't open them again for 6 mos.

Infra-red Vent Free heaters are the cleanest burning as you reach 1500F down in the meniscus of the plaque. Burns everything very thoroughly.

I have a lot of contractors using the Rinnai 606 vent free for temporary heat. Why freeze when you are working. They also like them because it allows them to manage their business. When someone looses a furnace or boiler everyone freaks. We have a lot of companies that will just drop a couple 606's in the house and buy a little time for the install. Funny thing is that very often upon finishing the replacement install they go to pick up the heater and the customer says, "where do you think you are going with my heater?"

By training and inclination I am a vented heater guy. I have to say though that sized right and properly installed, they are pretty neat... For contractors who have never done them I always recommend caution any time you start on a new catagory of product, especially vent free. Do a couple, follow-up with the customer, limit your exposure and make your decisions. I pretty much fire everything i sell at home.

At home, my primary heat is my Rinnai Energysaver direct vent heater. With the kids gone we pretty much live in a small percentage of the house. I heat the end with the Rinnai and turn the Buderus down low for the rest of the house.

Mark Hunt

Re: Gas cooking ranges


I agree with you 100% about the battle that will waged with those folks, and if you think it's tough to get PHVAC contractors to get trained about proper combustion, try talking to the local appliance dealer! HOOOOBOY!

Not to mention that most of these appliances are purchased at the big box stores now and many homeowners are hooking them up themselves. Now what happens?!??!

We tested a home last year that had a new gas range in it, two weeks old. CO #'s pegged the Bacharach! Hmmmmmm...

Well the unit was set up for natural gas, but it was connected to LP. The guy at the big box was told that the fuel was LP, but he said that the unit was "could" be used with LP. He didn't know about the conversion kit that was required to switch from Nat. gas to LP.

I was never much of a gambler and "vent-free" equipment is a roll of the dice in my opinion, especially those units with the fake logs. Line them uip correctly, and the CO numbers are low. If one of those "logs" gets shifted.....the numbers go through the roof.


Mark H

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Jim Davis

Unvented

You hit the nail on the head Timmie. Many rules are written to cater to manufacturers not consumers. But more people have died from vented appliances that didn't, than unvented that don't. Our job is to assure all appliances are tuned and operated as safe as possible. Automobiles probalbly subject us all to more fumes in a day than anything else, but I don't see anyone saying to ban them.

Steamhead

Uhhh, Jim-

If something goes wrong with a vented heater, the CO still has some chance of going out of the building- unless the vent is blocked, but that's another story.

If the same something goes wrong with an unvented heater, the CO stays in the room where the appliance is. It never has a chance of getting out of the building.

That's why we do not install, or participate in the installation of (such as running a gas pipe to the unit's location) any unvented heater.

Tim, I totally agree with you on the subject of stoves. These are by far the worst CO producers I've seen, but we all know they can be cleaned up easily if you know what you're doing. But for years, appliance dealers never tested, and you can be sure the guy who buys one at Home Depot isn't going to test. This situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

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tommyoil

What now?

I currently have an electric stove. Both myself and my wife have never gotten use to cooking with it. Actually we hate it. When we do the kitchen we fully intended on getting a gas stove/ center island w/ a grill. But now Im not sure after all this chatter. Should I reconsider? If we have a proper draft hood will it lessen the effect? or will I be pulling by-products from the boiler with the draft hood running and slowly dying anyway. Never gave it much thought until now. I think my balloon has just burst.

Mark Hunt

We HAVE to party Tommy!


0 to 100 in 2 seconds!!! I like that!

Here goes.

There is nothing wrong with a gas stove that is properly adjusted AND vented.

Now adding another exhaust to your home could cause enough depressurization that the atmospheric appliances stop drafting, BUT, it might not.

We first get a "base pressure". That is the pressure in the "Combustion appliance zone" or CAZ, with windows closed and nothing running. We reference the indoor pressure to outdoor pressure.(Dual input/reference digital manometer) Then we fire up the appliances and start turning on the exhausts, bathroom and kitchen exhausts, clothes dryer, and air handling equipment. We watch the pressure in the CAZ and the draft of the appliances. You could skip the CAZ test and just watch the draft. The CAZ pressure is more for documentation than a number to base action upon. So with a good draft gauge, Dwyer, watch what happens now when you begin to exhaust air from the CAZ. If you see a "wiggle" in the draft, you know that your current situation is not stable. Adding more exhaust to the home could cause big problems.

The variables in all of this are too many to go into in a forum. If you have some time, give me a call. I'd be happy to go over things in a bit more detail.

One "bizzaro world headline" before I go, electric appliances can produce CO as well.

I'll e-mail you my number.

Mark H

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tommyoil

Priorities

First things first. I'm ALWAYS up for a good party. Come to the beach and see.Margaritas,music,barbeque,bikinis the list goes on. We could have the next wetstock here in the sand and surf.Hows that sound? Second, come to think of it I run a weil/mclain CGI direct vent so I guess thats a non issue(is it ?)Would a direct vent unit feel the effects of exhaust fans? Gotta go re-inflate my new balloon.

Mark Hunt

No, it wouldn't


unless you had a HUGE exhaust going from the building.

I think it would be better if you came here and we swatted mosquitoes and black flies while brushing of deer ticks. Beer tastes better with a few skeeters in it!!

Cheers!!!!!!!

Mark H

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Jack_21

CO levels?

I honestly haven't been out on one in a long time and I do not have one installed at the house to try. I will however look for some over the coming months and I'll post my findings. I'd be happy to do that. More data, right?

Steamhead

Sounds good, Jack

Post anytime. We'll be watching!

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Steamhead

Tommy, Mark is right

If properly adjusted and vented, a gas stove can be used safely.

In my own house, the 35-years-young Norge was spewing over 1100 PPM of CO, air-free. I now have it down below 20 PPM.

If you're leery, the best thing to do is get to one of Tim McElwain's seminars. IMHO he's the best. And you do have a digital combustion analyzer, right?

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tommyoil

Shamefully, Steamhead

No, I do not have a DCA. I work for others who will not pay for one. Not that thats an excuse. If I get enough of these posts together, possibly they will reconsider. Or maybe, if I stop fishing for a couple of weeks I can afford to pick one up myself. The tuna may have to wait this season I guess. I sure will miss it offshore. I'll have to keep my eye on Tim to see when he'll be in my area. Was Mark right about the party or the other stuff? I think I know what youre going to say here.

Steamhead

I bought mine

from Steve Ebels, a fellow Wallie. Got a better price from him- don't know if he still has any though, it's been a couple of years!

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