Oil or Gas?

mikey

I need a new furnace. I am thinking of converting from oil to gas. Annually, how much additional will I be paying as a result of using gas? 10%, 20% or more?

Also, i live in South Bergen NJ. How much is a gas conversion (steam)?

Thanks.

Leo

Why Switch

Why do you want to switch if you feel you will be paying more? Are you judging oil negatively based on outdated equipment you may have? Oil gives choices as to who you deal with verses a utility (monopoly). Gas and oil prices flip flop but on average oil is lower. I have read that in some areas gas demand has gone up making it a problem during peak usage due to old pipes. There are many things to consider. Lastly there is an argument that gas needs less maintainence. It is always wise to have a professional set of eyes look at you system from time to time. Doing oil tune ups I have found problems needing to be addressed that weren't directly related to the burner.
Hope this made some sense to you,
Leo

lchmb

another point

I live in NH and have heard from way to many people who have switched to gas and regret it. Once they start seeing the difference in voluum they cannot stand it. Another trick that the natural gas company in NH is doing is if you do not use enough voluum (summer time) then they hit you with a delivery charge. Once you switch you cannot change companies generally. Not sure about your area. With that said I do deal with a number of propane customer's who are very happy with their system's. They don't mind the extra spent in a number of cases because the unit is quieter or is a direct vent unit and this make's them more comfortable. I would weigh all option's and go with what make's you most comfortable. And as Leo pointed out, no matter what you go with alway's have your unit inspected for safety issue's. Never hurt's to be to safe!!

Ken_8

Mike,

We're in Rahway, NJ about 45 minutes south of you.

The vast majority of our boiler installation work is exactly what you are contemplating; oil to gas conversion.

As the guys above suggest, your ability to "shop" for the best priced oil will be eliminated to a single source, P.S.E.& G. However NJ has a somewhat unique agenda that may trump their logic; that being, It is almost impossible to get homeowner's insurance with an oil tank buried in the yard. The liability issues of UST's (undergound storage tanks) is legendary in NJ. People have paid 100's of thousands of dollars in remediation fees for tanks that leaked less than 50 gallons of oil in the soil.

The need for more extensive and costly service with oil - as opposed to gas is an issue and having to keep the tank fill cleared in snow and ice conditions so the deliveryman can even find the tank fill is a real pain. Especially when you have a winter like the last one.

The noise factor is another issue. Gas heating is generally silent. Good oil boilers make a lot of combustion sound and if a basement rec room is in the picture, the noise of operation can be a real pain with oil.

Finally, you used the term "furnace." You did mean steam type boiler - right? The terms are confusing to us all, but generally a guy who does boilers (like me) doesn't necessarily do hot air furnaces. One is a bunch of pipe work, the other is ducts and fans.

If its a steam or water boiler you have there, give me a call at (732) 388-1794. I'll try and give you some ideas and throw some numbers at you. If you really do have a hot air "furnace," I have little expertise in that area so I won't be much help.

Good luck, either way.





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Robert O'Connor_5

Residential aplication..

You could expect to save about $200 a year with the oil,(not withstanding oil market price flucuations) however that does not include a maintenence agreement from your oil dealer which is about that much. Many full serve oil companies will install much less than the garden variety P&H company because (and clause), they make the $$ by selling oil. I belive the most significant factor IMHO is the oil tank, is it inside or outside and how many gallons? Robert O'Connor/NJ

Ken_8

Say what?

Oil is hovering at $45-50/bbl.

The highest in history.

Gas (including the monthly "service fee" runs around $1.68/gallon [this is an apples to apples comparison, using the factors of a C.F. of gas having 100MBTU's and oil having 140MBTU's].

If you buy oil at less than $1.68/gallon - oil is cheaper. If more, gas is cheaper.

Nonethless, at $50/bbl., oil will logically cost over $2.00 a gallon this winter - making gas far more economical.

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joe_33

Ken

I do take offense to the statement that oil needs alot more costly maintaince.Every heating system no matter what fuel a should be looked over once a year by a qualified tech.Secondly if a oil heating system is installed properly and setup with proper fitlers and test equitment the most that should be done annually is a filter change period.I have been doing this to the over 1000 acounts that I service and deliver fuel for.Over two hundred of these systems have been installed in the past 6 years by my company and I will put up any of these systems next to any new gas system period.As to the price of fuel I will be offering a $1.64 price cap to my customers this season that ends your thrid point Fact

Ken_8

Interesting that you would take offense

at my comment about maintenance being more expensive but never mentioned UST liability issues which are the real force behind most oil to gas conversion-mania here in NJ (and probably the rest of the nation where NG is available as well); noise factors which are obvious, snow and ice covered fill-boxes, etc. You just chose the only one that has semblance of a defense, and even that one was "lame"!

I do both oil and gas - and unlike you, have no "bias" driving my commentary. I do not sell oil or gas. I care little which way a client goes. But here's the facts: Of all the boilers we installed this past 12 months, not one was gas to oil. The thirty or so we did, were oil to gas conversions. Only one was oil to oil; probably because there was no NG in the area. Four were oil to LP. I really tried to talk them out of THAT desire. Made no sense in any case. They all had 275's in the basement! No UST issues to even contend with.

I lead them to the water - but cannot make them drink. Two of those four heard there was a gas main coming and opted for the later conversion opportunities that staying with oil would have only could allow a later conversion using a gas power burner.

Keep your biased ire to yourself. If you sell oil, everyone should have oil. If you're a utility, everyone should have gas.

But if you are a heating contractor with ethics and no agenda, sell them what they want and need - and install it better than either!

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Robert O'Connor_5

Oil vs. Gas..

i agree with Ken, If you would address the tank issue we would be on the same page, without doing so and imposing price caps on per gallon basis would only be half the story anyhow. Are there minimum gallons to buy? Do you buy upfront? What if my gallons run out, is the price cap still in effect? Does all the full sevice price per gallon all inclusive (meaning tank insurance & bumper to bumper coverage). I was not bashing any one system over another, frankly I could care less. We install it all , and make no qualms over it. The original poster asked for advice and who better to give it than someone without a incentive to sell the fuel itself..Need a quote? (201) 951-2419...Robert O'Connor/NJ

jerry scharf_2

predicting Fuel prices

Ken,

Predicting fuel prices is harder than reading tea leaves (though I prefer the Greeks who read the coffee grounds.) Gas runs with slightly different pricing drivers than oil, but they tend to track each other. If oil goes up 25%, then gas will almost certainly go up as well. Will the gas go up 15%, 25% or 40%? Time for another cup of coffee.

jerry

Ken_8

Oil prices are floating base on supply and demand,

gas prices (at least in NJ) are not. The Board of Public Utilities assures the gas companies a "reasonable" profit and controls prices and increases as well. We also have many medium to large users buying NG through brokers at considerably better prices than us homeowners. Hoemowners are starting to look at these brokers as saving even more money and a few are forming neighborhood co-ops to muscle even better prices from the bulk pipeliners. The exact same thing that happened to long distance phone carriers has happened to gas utilities in NJ. Is that a good thing? I suggest it is a very good thing!

The nightmares of tankless coils and oil-fired water heaters or electric clothes dryers and cook stoves hasn't even been discussed yet. Those ancillary issues are perhaps more important than the basic heating issues we've been kicking around!

Ever heard of an oil-fired dryer? How about an oil-fired cook top?

No one seems to dispute that the oil vs. gas debate is a "legit" topic of discussion and debate. But the need to be sucked into 11-cents a KW cook-top, oven and clothes dryer (and/or water heater) would transfer added burden of the highest priced fuel onto the already high cost of oil by default!

I personally have an electric stove, gas clothes dryer and gas boiler with indirect. The boiler is an old T/L JVT 100 copper tube. The indirect an old 40-gallon Phase III.

The house we are building on the mountain top in VT will be a Monitor FCX oil-fired comndensing unit with 40-gallon W/M Plus. Some radiant (copper with Dale's plates) and some W/M baseboard. Multi zoned with O.R. A single, in the basement, 275 will be the fuel source. A very small apron and deck snow melt is likely. A HX to separate the glycolled snowmelt is likely. I may glycol the whole thing and use PE and a total system HX to prevent O2 problems. But copper will be a big part of the radiant zone(s)

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clammy

not fot nothing

Not for nothing and not wanting to start any thing with any body but even with the tank insurance issues in jersey where i work and live if you have gas you either sign a service agreement with the ulitity or call a plumber to service your gas appaliance and with the ulitity you are one of many being serviced by a # on a shift and as i know when it's cold you will wait weather your a preferred or retired custemer with special needs i have done calls for elderly friends who heat was off who called there ulitities and told them 4 to 7 days with out door temps in the teens and yet another one whos ulitity came said they fixed it didn,t they got the run around i went over something stupid gottem going and even though the ulitity still got money every month added to there bill what a schim i wish i could pull that off the other thing with gas is i don't know any body that gets a annaul inspection on there gas heating systems to0 them annaul servicing is a scam and when they do call it's broken or it's a piece of junk that's ancient at least with oil once a year some one comes and does a cleaning and they usaually will give you a idea of what shape your system is in .I work in the northern bergen (jersey )and rockland and orange in ny .I,m not saying whatis better it's a free world but if your home is large and your tank indoors i might think of sticking with oil but check things out hows your chimmey at least with gas you can get direct vent high effeciency units depending upon your system type steam hot water or hot air .clammy peace RDEUZA@aol.com

Kal Row

stick to steam and oil...

just make sure you use a contractor that has read Dan Holohan's books, pick one from "Find a Professional" here, nothing like peer pressure to keep us on top of our game

simple facts: yes facts!!
there is a greater GAS shortage on the planet than oil - if that isn't a "duh" factor, i don’t know what is!!!

and lp-gas derived from oil or coal is more expensive - "derived" being the key word


Steam: steam is the original radiant heat - if it installed and maintained correctly and the radiators well exposed so that they can properly "ray-dee-8" - the avg winter bill will be lower than your neighbor's – there is tons of experience here on the wall to back that up

Rookie_3

Jerry

Track each other is being polite. Oil could go to $3.00 a gal. and as soon as everyone converted to gas they would be right up there too. Mike should look at the volumn like ichmb said, the prices between the two will more than likely level on the same scale they are now.
N.G. 1,000 BTU's CU.FT./Propane 2,500 BTU's CU.FT.
Oil 140,000 BTU's per gal..
Dan

Maine Ken

Up in these parts gas is and has been more expensive to buy. Delivery is a major problem. The "Utility" has more demand than supply frequently. Gas and oil both have their places. I try to guide towards oil because of the fuel costs. I believe that for my customers oil is a more economic choice.

It is truly amazing the price differences for both gas and oil across this country. I would think that the prices should be much closer together no matter where you are!!!!

joe_33

ken

I am in metro ny area.My customers have no problem getting tank insurance for the ones with ust.I have taken 10 ust out of service this year and only one was leaking.This tank was in service for 62 years not bad.The rest were taken out of service from me recommending to the homeowner that something should be done because of the age of the tanks and that nothing last forever.I have lost 3 customer to gas so far this season.Tried to explain why they should stay with oil but I guess everyone has the right to their own choice.I have also converted 4 single family home from gas to oil 2 electric to oil 1 lp to oil and 1 10 family house from gas to oil.This customer has several buildings with me and this one properties fuel bills were killing him Fact.I have had customer for different reasons I have told that ng would be a better fit for them, but I do believe oil is the better choose for the majority of homeowners for the plain and simple fact that you have a hugh choose of companies with oil and you do not with gas.Also you said in NJ that public service helps regulate the price of gas and to figure a fair profit.Did not tell that if they do not sell a certain amount of gas in season there is a service charge added as they do here in NY.Just imagine if I did not sell the avg amount of fuel to my customers in a heating season because of a warmer than normal season and add a surcharge to their bill in the spring because did not make my min profit.I would be told to go @#$% &^$.All the FACTS please Ken.

Ken D.

Nightmares?

I'm just curious about the tankless coil, electric dryer and cookstove nightmares you mentioned. I have had all three my whole life and NEVER had a problem with any. We are not gourmet chefs, commercial laundry or a health club. I have a New Yorker FR122 with a Beckett oil burner with a tankless. Plenty of hot water. I don't have a hot tub or steam room. When the coil scales up, I will replace coil if boiler is still in good shape. I have heard differing opinions on the savings an indirect will produce with our lifestyle. They range from a lot to not much. Maybe someday will find the truth. We do several loads of laundry a week as well as a lot of cooking. The electric appliances and oil boiler all operate satisfactorily. So, what's the problem? As for the orignial question, The tank problems can be remedied if there is no contamination already by getting a new dual wall tank and put it into the basement (where mine is) or garage, store room or oudoors. Will be a lot cheaper than converting entire system to gas. One problem with gas that was not mentioned is that gas can go boom easier than oil. One customer we had about 15 years ago had her house severely damaged by her neighbor's gas explosion 2 houses away. At least 10 homes had varying degrees of damage as a result including 2 deaths. Extreme case, but not unheard of. And talk about a nightmare, how about have your gas supply line leak underground in your front yard and having it seep into your neighbor's house causing an explosion or fire! Do I smell a lawsuit? The gas and oil prices seesaw, propane is made out of the same stuff fuel oil is so the propane prices follow the oil prices and with the new technologies, the gas units need much more attention than the standard atmospheric burners of yore that only had efficiencies in the high 70's. The fact is there are pros and cons of all heat sources. As for original question, I'm sticking to oil.

mikey

Thanks for your response

Thanks for taking time to write.

There are a lot of good stuffs written and I am still in the process of absorbing all your comments. Thanks again.

Unknown

Best of both worlds

My old boss had a rental house with an old Repco oil boiler . The heating bill was included in the rent , so when the tank ran low from the free oil we would get from gas conversions , he would send one of us out there to swap the Riello for the gas gun that sat idle and ready to go .

I wonder the efficiencies produced when a new oil boiler is fired with a gas gun ?

tommyoil

My old stomping grounds

Just did a gas steam boiler in Rutherford this weekend. Lots and lots of steam in your area. It was gas to gas replacement. HOWEVER, I put tons of oil to gas steam replacements in The S Bergen Cty. area and the common complaint is WHERES MY SAVINGS? The answer is and has been with gas and steam, at least in our area, there wont be any to speak of. If the tanks in good shape, stick it out w/ the oil(just an opinion) Its not what your neighbors w/ gas are telling you.Oil heat is NOT a dinosaur. If properly maintained(like anything else) you'll get years of great service from it.Just make sure you get someone who knows steam. Lots of steam hacks in Bergen Cty. Get references!

Kal Row

show \"the wall\" to what ever contractor you choose...

and tell them that the system's pictures will be posted!!- it’s will cost you more – for sure – but the quality will be real - G U A - R A N - T E E D !!!

ps if you decide to switch to a hot water system - you can still stick with oil and get real savings with the EK-1 system 2000 from http://www.energykinetics.com/s2000.html built in Lebanon NJ apx 1hr drive from you - you can go see them. a manufacture's opinion might be biased, but still educational

Ken_8

O.K. Here are just a few:

1) Tankless heaters either provide scalding water for the first 3 minutes and "calm down" or cannot handle the draw of a tub/bath. Just ask my wife, the bath queen. There is no really good tempering valve made that can handle anything but the softest water. Within 6 months they lime up and stop tempering anything. If you never had a problem with this tankless shortfall, you are the only one on the face of the earth I ever heard of who can say that. Trust me. You are the extremely rare exception.

2) When the coil scales up? Why should I install a system that will need to be replaced at 200-bucks a pop every few years? That's not maintenance, that's a "nightmare"!

3)Of course electric appliances work fine. They just make the meter spin off the house with each use. Where hydro-electric sources are near, electric is cheaper than gas (or oil). Since I suspect you don't live in Buffalo or Tennesee, I assume you have money to burn on electric bills - that could be reduced by NG?

4) Obviously, if there is no NG in your area none of this post has relevance. LP and electric are roughly the same price per BTU.

5) Safety? A neighbor's house blew up with NG, you say? Ever seen an oil-fired boiler puffback? I've seen chimneys explode and houses destroyed by oil fires. All fuels are dangerous. However, we picked up an account because of "dampness" in the cellar. They left the vent off the water heater for two years. Vented it directly into the basement. I tested the CO and found under 5 ppm. Had that been an oil hot water heater, the family would be dead, not humid. Let's not even go there. LP is even more dangerous! But that's a whole 'nother magilla...

Is THAT not a nightmare?

6) You ask about the gas pipe leakage in the piping in the yard. I suggest you not go there either. A Bridgewater, NJ home had a 550 UST leaker that was discovered when they went to sell the house, and a heads-up inspector really inspected the property out. At last check, the EPA and State DOE had the entire yard excavtaed to find the end of the "stain" and over 200 cubic yards of their front yard was removed before they hit groundwater and determined a nearby stream that feeds a resevoir was contaminated as well. At last check the house could not be sold until the cleanup was completed and the quarter-million dollar threshhold of the homeowner's insurance had been exceeded - placing remediation/cleanup costs on the homeowner's wallet. The house never did sell and the owner has filed for bancruptcy.

Let's not go there either. Okay?



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Ken D.

Ken

I am 51 years old and lived in a major industrial city my whole life along with 32 years in hvac and have not experienced all the disasters you have. Maybe I should move to your area to experience them. The point is that things do happen, but I'm here to tell you that they are not all the nightmares you say. Yes, an oil heater can explode, but, outside of industrial units they usually don't take the house or neighborhood with it. There is no denying the UST problem is a major one. Just as the asbestos problem is major. I can remember when people got sprayed with DDT to keep mosquitos away. Back then no one thought about the enviromental or health damage. Nowadays it is in the forefront and in my area the local governments haven't allowed UST's in close to 20 years. I maintain if the tank is double wall and above ground the chance of problems is minimal.The key is to replace

Ken D.

Ken D.

Ken_8

If the tank is double wall and above ground?

Anywhere the winter temps get to zero F or below you'll have more than a "nightmare." You'll be too cold to have any dreams at all.

Oil tanks belong in basements or underground - not in the yard or under the porch!

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tommyoil

Lots of above ground

Where are you living? While I fully agree that tanks should be in a temp controlled environment its not the case here. We have loads and loads of above ground, exposed to the elements, tanks in my area. While,you are correct Ken, we have our share of problems w/ regard to freeze ups, they are few and far between. When they do arise, its because the tanks are 25+ years old and full of gunk just like the buried tanks or basement tanks for that matter. Our fuel is treated,or cut with k-1 during spells of zero degree temps,such as it is. When we have recurring problems they are quickly eliminated and new tanks installed, thats right, exactly where the old ones were. Above ground where we can see and service them. Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I wouldnt put a quadruple wall tank underground if you GAVE it to me for free. I want to see a problem if its going to occur. Not wonder when. I live on top of 4 different watersheds.We dont want anymore in the ground water than is already there. We'll take our chances with frozen fuel. Just my 2cents. All due respect of course.

Ken D.

Ken, Sorry the computer crashed. Oil Heat.

Must be the bad vibes. As I was saying, The key is to replace the tank before it leaks. Above ground means anything that is not underground. Basement or other wise. In the Mid Atlantic region the winters are not as cold as our friends in Maine or other northern climates, so they probably have more of a cold oil problem than we do. Maintain the outdoor tank and your problems are minimized. Admittedly, the oil companies ignored the UST problem for too long, resulting in a serious enviromental disaster the residential end has yet to feel the full brunt of. There is only contamination when the tank leaks. Get the tank out of the ground. Luckily we have very few UST's. A competeing company has thousands. Mostly all full service companies in our area have tank coverage available. As for electric stoves, Unless you run them 24 hours a day, they hardly qualify as a nightmare. If you live in the Tennessee Valley where electricity is cheap it is not much of a nightmare. If you live where gas is not plentiful, it can be. As for your accusation that I am fibbing, I can assure you that We have a market that still has around 5 to 8 thousand boilers from the 1950's with tankless coils that have surface mount Klixons for high and low limits that maintain 210 degrees F. The design and location of the heaters do not lend themselves to modern aquastats.We have mixing valves on the hundreds that we have under contract, and our failure rate is low. They are covered under the contract. A gas boiler with an indirect can experience a malfunction and scald someone also. If oil is so dangerous, how come half of the Northeast isn't in ashes. As much as you trash Oil Heat, Go ahead we can take it. Cut me and I bleed fuel oil. But guess what? I think gas is a good product too. We do a lot of gas service. Is it more dangerous than oil? Yes, but problems are rare. Just not as rare as Fuel oil. Our utility has all outdoor gas meters and vents. Not very attractive either. The tank cannot always be put indoors just as not everyone can have gas. Our oil drivers don't spill the product all over the place No professional company will. Hyperbole will get you nowhere. Don't even go there.

Ken_8

Huh?

You wrote, "We have loads and loads of above ground, exposed to the elements, tanks in my area."

Not trying to be flip here, but the LAST thing I want to see in my neighborhood is a bunch of tanks exposed and sitting in the yard next to the house! That's why we bury them in the first place or put them in a warm basement!

Exposed tanks are an eyesore, dangerous attraction for kids with garden hoses and illegal in most towns with "appearance standards".

Other than that, they're wonderful. I love the looks of the rust and fuel oil stains as they drool down onto the ground next to the house. Standing on a ladder to get to the fill box must make the deliveryman really happy (:-o). Must be real fun when the siding gets a shot of red fuel dye all over the white on white, with white vinyl siding.



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Ken_8

Pray tell oh prescient one (Tommyoil),

Exactly when is the "correct" time to replace an oil tank?

When is too early? When too late?

The obvious "best time" is never. If you never put one in - you'll never have to determine when to replace it - will you!

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tommyoil

I'll take ugly any day

Never said they were pretty.But now with the new"tank covers" its only 1/2 as ugly. Alot of Roths going in too. I never said you were wrong. Only that we still put them in above ground w/o many problems.The big thing here is the watersheds. Couldnt care much what they look like if I can still take a dip in the ocean. Would you rather look at a unsightly oil tank, or a dirty ocean? In the big picture I'll take looking at a sh#*^&ty oil tank any day. I wont speak for you but I think I know your answer.

Unknown

They make nice tank covers now Ken

All colors of the rainbow - match the siding . Wood , fiberglass , PVC , galvanized Roth tanks . Thousands of em above ground and outside over here . Gelling problems are few with the right additives . And I agree with you about looking at a tank against a home , but with the average cost of a dinky Levitt cruising past 350,000 , it aint hurting the resale value too much .

Ken_8

Tommy,

I already posted the home of my dreams will have oil heat. I am in the process of getting started now in VT where minus 30° is common!

There is no NG and propane makes no sense. I presently work as a sub-contractor for 12 oil companies. I do all their bigger commercial stuff. I have no axe to grind. I do NOT sell oil or gas fuel. I design, sell and install the equipment that burns the fuel - not the fuel itself.

I like oil. Not as much as NG; but I have no problem with oil. I just can't stand all the BS as to how cheaper and safer it is - especially from those who are biased by virtue of the fact that they sell it and then make untrue claims of its "superiority"!

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Ken_8

Yeah but,

Ya could get 400 without the "UTS" (ugly tank syndrome) (:-o)

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Murph'_5

Honest opinions are rare !!

Where this Ken fellow is coming from tends to make me believe he does what is in the customers best interest, he provides heating sources, not fuel !! I just cannot imagine in this day and age trying to convert someone from gas to oil with all the enviromental issues coming into play. IF it is your only (viable) option then great, do the best you can with what you got, otherwise why would you want to promote and subsidize products from overseas? Man this gets old and boring, you guys want to push your agendas at the "real cost" to the consumer!Been There.

Ken D.

C'mon Ken,

You talk like every neighborhood in the world has gas available. Get real. The best time to avoid problems with the furnace is not to install one at all? As the jingle says OIL HEATS BEST!

Ken_8

Thanks

I think (:-o)

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Ken_8

I was speaking purely from my own

North Jersey experience. That IS my reality afterall.

I am very aware that oil is a wonderful fuel - as long as NG is NOT in the 'hood.

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Ken D.

Been There

FYI- Much of our natural gas comes from Mexico. Oil is not the enviromental disaster you are making it out to be. How about the greenhouse gases all combustibles emit? How about the freon from your heat pump. No energy source is perfect.

Ken_8

Perhaps you recall

The Valdeze "incident"?



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tommyoil

no agenda

When did I claim "superiority". maybe I misread my own post. The discussion was about above ground oil tanks. What I said was this, I would rather look at an unsightly oil tank standing next to a house than to have one in ground leaking into 4 different watersheds including the Atlantic ocean. Nothing more. Also that from the service stand point that ,sure, problems occur w/ gelling ect. but that w/ proper additives our service becomes minimized. I install(like you)oil AND gas. And quite frankly, I could not care less which one you choose. Its what suits the customer best(also like you). I'll have to go back now and read my post all over again and see where I said superior or where I may have come off as being biased. Maybe its between the lines somewhere. I have no agenda w/ regard to oil or gas.My only agenda is customer satisfaction(like you and the others here)