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Commentary on Annual Oil Burner Maintenance Post
First of all I think technician #039 did a great job, no not great FANTASTIC. If we had more like him things would be a lot better.
Second thing I think the homewoner asked for some support from all of us. We need to be more careful about jumping up and down because a CO test was not done. The CO test just proves that we know what we are doing. If I were teaching someone to adjust a burner I would not let them hook up test equipment until they had told me that they are all done with adjustments and ready for test. We can get to dependant on instruments and not know what we are doing.
Please do not mis-interpret what I am about to say - Here goes
Long before we had electronic equipment some of us used the bottles. I was on the bottle for years. I have ORSATED thousands of burners with the bottles. The bottles were the final test. We had to know combustion adjustments, flame adjustments, air adjustments, baffling, neutral pressure point adjustments, pressure testing, a lot of it was by touch, taste, feel and listening and certainly looking. The final analysis was the squeezing of a sample into the bottles tip them up and down a few times set them on a level area at room temp and then read the result. You had to be able to tell when the bottles needed changing. You really had to know your stuff. It may seem to some of you that maybe we flew by the seat of our pants. The real truth is we had the ability to properly adjust burners. THAT IS A LOST ART. It certainly cannot be taught in a three or four day seminar.
Back in the "OLD DAYS" "when that's the way we did it" I do not remember one incident on my companies lines (200,000 heating customers) caused by an improperly adjusted piece of equipment. The CO incidents came about due to ignorance of customers and improper use of equipment.
I used my Fyrite bottles for a long time and then tested with a Monoxor or MSA CO tester using colormetric ampoules.They changed color based on % CO and number of squeezes. I never tested for CO until the entire job was completed CO2, O2, stack temp all calculated and documented. The last thing I did before I walked out was a CO test. I never had a job that showed CO - reason - knowing what you are doing.
We are now blessed with electronic instruments. I commend those who use them and test. They are not cheap and require a lot of maintenance. Many may not yet be able to afford them, I am not making excuses for them that is just the facts. You are also right that if you do not test you do not know.
I would ask all of us however to get off our soap boxes for a while. We may be upsetting people instead of educating them. All of our ranting and raving only brings attention to us and not the problem.
Our heating industry is slow to spend money for instrumentation that can not be shown to make them money. It is our job to educate them as to the financial potential that testing offers.
I teach a group of LP gas folks, most of them do not test. some do not even have a combutible gas indicator.
The oil guys are reluctant to get on board about CO. They however have done more testing over the years than any other group including LP and Natural gas industry.
As for the CO panel. I invited George Lanthier to be on the panel. I asked him for a very good reason. He knows what he is doing. He is very articulate and also not afraid to speak his mind when it needs to be done. Do not judge him until you have sat in one of his classes. Remember none of us has all the answers, not Tim McElwain, nor Jim Davis we all need one another and we all bring something to the table. In the end we are all going for the same goal which is SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY. The panel as I see it will be coming together to present the truth about CO and the importance of testing.
The real problem gents is that we do not have many techs like #039. He reminds me of an old timer who trained me. He took everything apart on almost every job and cleaned, cleaned and cleaned. Then repairs, repairs and more repairs. I can remember spending four days on a boiler (no charge for service in those days the gas company gave free service instead of free equipment) Think about this back in those days he would never leave a heating job below 75% combustion efficiency.
TESTING DOES NOT MAKE YOU A COMBUSTION EXPERT - KNOWING COMBUSTION DOES!!!
Second thing I think the homewoner asked for some support from all of us. We need to be more careful about jumping up and down because a CO test was not done. The CO test just proves that we know what we are doing. If I were teaching someone to adjust a burner I would not let them hook up test equipment until they had told me that they are all done with adjustments and ready for test. We can get to dependant on instruments and not know what we are doing.
Please do not mis-interpret what I am about to say - Here goes
Long before we had electronic equipment some of us used the bottles. I was on the bottle for years. I have ORSATED thousands of burners with the bottles. The bottles were the final test. We had to know combustion adjustments, flame adjustments, air adjustments, baffling, neutral pressure point adjustments, pressure testing, a lot of it was by touch, taste, feel and listening and certainly looking. The final analysis was the squeezing of a sample into the bottles tip them up and down a few times set them on a level area at room temp and then read the result. You had to be able to tell when the bottles needed changing. You really had to know your stuff. It may seem to some of you that maybe we flew by the seat of our pants. The real truth is we had the ability to properly adjust burners. THAT IS A LOST ART. It certainly cannot be taught in a three or four day seminar.
Back in the "OLD DAYS" "when that's the way we did it" I do not remember one incident on my companies lines (200,000 heating customers) caused by an improperly adjusted piece of equipment. The CO incidents came about due to ignorance of customers and improper use of equipment.
I used my Fyrite bottles for a long time and then tested with a Monoxor or MSA CO tester using colormetric ampoules.They changed color based on % CO and number of squeezes. I never tested for CO until the entire job was completed CO2, O2, stack temp all calculated and documented. The last thing I did before I walked out was a CO test. I never had a job that showed CO - reason - knowing what you are doing.
We are now blessed with electronic instruments. I commend those who use them and test. They are not cheap and require a lot of maintenance. Many may not yet be able to afford them, I am not making excuses for them that is just the facts. You are also right that if you do not test you do not know.
I would ask all of us however to get off our soap boxes for a while. We may be upsetting people instead of educating them. All of our ranting and raving only brings attention to us and not the problem.
Our heating industry is slow to spend money for instrumentation that can not be shown to make them money. It is our job to educate them as to the financial potential that testing offers.
I teach a group of LP gas folks, most of them do not test. some do not even have a combutible gas indicator.
The oil guys are reluctant to get on board about CO. They however have done more testing over the years than any other group including LP and Natural gas industry.
As for the CO panel. I invited George Lanthier to be on the panel. I asked him for a very good reason. He knows what he is doing. He is very articulate and also not afraid to speak his mind when it needs to be done. Do not judge him until you have sat in one of his classes. Remember none of us has all the answers, not Tim McElwain, nor Jim Davis we all need one another and we all bring something to the table. In the end we are all going for the same goal which is SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY. The panel as I see it will be coming together to present the truth about CO and the importance of testing.
The real problem gents is that we do not have many techs like #039. He reminds me of an old timer who trained me. He took everything apart on almost every job and cleaned, cleaned and cleaned. Then repairs, repairs and more repairs. I can remember spending four days on a boiler (no charge for service in those days the gas company gave free service instead of free equipment) Think about this back in those days he would never leave a heating job below 75% combustion efficiency.
TESTING DOES NOT MAKE YOU A COMBUSTION EXPERT - KNOWING COMBUSTION DOES!!!
0
Comments
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take a bow Tim
Applauding from my monitor!
cheese0 -
Thanks Tim
for a logical, common sense post.
Regards
Robert
ME0 -
Thank you Sir, I feel the same way about you
and any professional who knows the 'Science of Combustion', not just how to use ANY tester!0 -
Agreed
Well Said!! just because you use a dumbell does not mean you are one, quite the opposite you need to know the combustion process better, I think it is better to get trained on a dumbell kit first it gives you a better understanding of the combustion process so when you graduate to a cumbustion analyzer you have somthing to go on when maybe you have a sensor fail in your combustion analyzer.
I carry a PCA-55 and a dumbell kit I just can't make myself get rid of the old kit.
S Davis
Apex Radiant Heating0 -
Ditto
A properly adjusted burner has little chance of producing much CO. Isn't that the point ? Knowing what you're seeing, hearing, etc. goes a LONG way before the instruments even come out. My analyzer's the last thing out of the truck, it's for final tuning, not diagnosis.0 -
The truth here is black and white
Whoever said employee #39 did not do a great job? Maybe he did not know about different equipment available? Maybe his company did not provide that equipment? Employee #39 performing at that level is no doubt open to learning as much as can. If I help promote that, then I have helped someone learn more, as others have helped me through my career. Now words mean things, Tim stated " The panel as I see it will be coming together to present the truth about Co and the importance of testing". That was exactly the point I was bringing out on this C&S job. It is very important. Tim stated " testing does not make you a combustion expert knowing combustion does". If you understand combustion and know what is produced by it, you are obligated to test. The testing equipment available today was not available 37 years ago. For whatever personal reasons people have taken a slighted stance on this.
I am curious why employee #39's company is now buying better testing equipment. The truth is if you do not test, you do not know. You are only guessing, at the customers expense and their family's safety. The laws of physics that control combustion are black and white, no gray areas. No personal slight was ever intended to anyone here. Carbon Monoxide is the #1 cause of accidental poisonings in the United States. Alot more have been killed by CO than both gulf wars put together. I choose to sleep in peace at night, knowing I have done everything possible to not put my customers life or health at risk.
Everyone likes to talk about change in our industry. It starts with us. We are a two man outfit. We own two Bacharach pro 120's. When companies can go out and buy two thousand dollar copper presses, they can afford a digital analyzer. You know, when people get sick, they want to find the best there is to help them. That is what we need to be , the best there is. To prevent them from getting sick.
It would be better to help encourage the people in our trade to continue forward and make things better, not to take two steps off to the side and talk about the old days.
Darin0 -
That is the point
A digital combustion analyzer tells you what is going on during the combustion process. It lets you know what you have accomplished from your cleaning. You monitor start-up, run, and shut-down. It can be a very effective diagnostic tool.
Darin0 -
Yes Timmie, here we go again
And you can count on me to keep going, especially when someone who should know better says something stupid.
"Don't worry about the CO test", that is what was posted. Knowing all you know, defend that statement.
Tell the couple in Texas that buried their 2 year old twins not to worry about CO.
Tell the Bronx family that lost a father and a daughter not to worry about CO.
No sir, this game has gone on long enough.
I can't believe that anyone with years of experience would try to argue against testing. That is exactly what you and George are doing. Tell me where I am wrong here. I test combustion from start to finish and encourage others to do get trained to do the same. Is that bad?
If CO is no problem, why bother venting anything? Heck. ovens are allowed to produce 800ppm unvented. Certainly 30ppm would be no problem right? Or how about 70ppm? That's the lowest level a UL listed CO alarm is allowed to start alarming. Makes good sense huh?
I test EVERY HOUSE I ENTER.
You and George tell me why that is not necessary.
I have hundreds of reasons why I should, you give me ONE reason why I shouldn't.
Yah, testing doesn't make you a combustion expert. You are correct. Knowing combustion does. So as long as I know what the CO2/smoke/draft/stack temp is, I know what the combustion is?
Is CO a part of combustion? Is there a limit for CO in combustion? Is the CO limit in gas combustion different than oil? If there is a maximum allowable ppm of CO in combustion, how would one know unless one tested?
Maybe I need to post the protocols set down by OSHA, or BPI, or ASHRAE, or the EPA?
Anyone familiar with these protocols? I am.
So how do you teach combustion without teaching the importance of CO testing? What do you tell people to do when the CO level reaches 400ppm? Why is that important?
You have the power to change the industry.
Either you believe it needs to be changed, or you don't.
BTW Timmie, take a look at how many contractors think CO testing is no big deal. Where do they get that idea from?
http://www.bacharach-training.com/CO Zone1/CO Standards and Guidelines.htm
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
technology
Thirty five years ago three people left this planet, two of them walked around on the moon and then they came back. This was all accomplished by people using pencil and paper, slide rules, and some very rudimentary electronic equipment (by todays standards). It sounds like the guy (#039) did a great job with what he had.0 -
Experience is worth its weight in anylizers...
all of you may dissagree ..Thats fine. Not that i dont like them or they have no worth...God gave you a few tools like eyes and ears...if some of the younger guys wernt listening to rubbish lindenburger and Loud noise booming into the dark recesses of the surrounding neighbourhood Perhaps they would "see" things immediately. those two ears God gave each of us were designed to hear only truth...And as sences go our sence of smell is the highest on the path ways. if it Stinks its probably not tuned to sweet hey? i walked into the boiler room look around listen for whats going on no one can get it to go...all kinds of new parts all over the place...ask whats going on..turn it off crank it on listen for low fire no high fire...get a grollia glove..do the same thing again...choke down some of the excess air kicks in on high fire..let it run up to temp....what Combustion anylizer wasnt used on the POS prior to my arrival?did i exact this out of the eathers from the numerous tests done on the equipment?Perhaps i was inspired by the new controls? the countless hours spent on it by a drove of other s? I dont Think so:) i would destroy your faith in technology in a heart beat with just the Kind Glance of God....:)0 -
Weezbo
Until we have all been touched by the Hand of the Almighty and can stare a system into submission, I will trust the gizmos.
You cannot smell CO.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
You nailed it Darin
No-one said #39 did a bad job. All we said is that it would have been better if he had done a CO test.
But these folks don't like that because they have never and will never teach that.
They hang on to the ways that they were told, and try to make you and I out to be the bad guys. HA!
We know that what we offer our customers is far beyond what the old school does.
There was a guy that used to make wooden wheels for wagons and he had a friend that decided to make tires.
His friends name is Goodyear, what was his name?
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
)) I like your persistence:)
0 -
testing
I am a oil service guy the effecency kit i have i brough the co i work for didn,t buy it a new digital testing stuff i was luckly they got me a new vacume when the old one broke #39 did the best he could with what he hadf and to tell the truth most of all the oil co in my area don't even do eff test they just copy what the last guy wrote Where i work we just got rid of lazy old timer now where going to jobs he took care of 4 spackle buckets of soot and 2 vacume bags but the ho loved the old guy never clean and they never complained yeah i would love a ner digital tester do i see my boss running to get them i don't think so should i go buy it why would i get a raise or re emburshed i didn't for all the other stuff that i brough so who should be buying it the co or the worker peaceR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating0 -
Expected your
reply Mark, but quite frankly I think you missed Tim's point completely.
Well said Tim.0 -
CO
Mark, I can't tell you how many times I thought I had a service complete with good eff. co2 etc. until a CO reading was out of wack telling me something was still not right. I always test for CO and many times this is the only test which tells me there is still some kind of problem lurking. Where can I get info on the protocols you mention. THanx,
Gary from Granville0 -
Here you go Gary
http://www.bacharach-training.com/CO Zone1/CO Standards and Guidelines.htm
If you want more info, let me know.
BTW, I will be starting a job out your way very soon.
Let's do lunch or something!!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Yup, you can count on it!
0 -
Yes it can
Be a very effective diagnostic tool. So can my eyes and ears. Why use the analyzer to tell me the air band is open too far or the flame is impinging ? I can see that and usually hear it. Why waste sensors that need to be replaced just so you can say the difference of before and after ? I'm not saying testing doesn't have merit or isn't necessary, just not needed as a comparative tool or a first-line diagnostic tool. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your use for diagnosis ?
I'm going out on a limb here, but oh well. I can't remember the last time my analyzer disagreed with my "other tools" enough to warrant more than a "tweaking".0 -
Sounds somewhat familiar...
Last year I spent some time with the service guy while he did the annual at my mother-in law's house. I have offered to take over that job in the past, but she has a contract. The job seemed neglected for many years, but this time the guy was magnificant in his diligence. I traded servicing tips with him the whole way, and praised his ethics. It was a pleasant time (for a while). He eyeballed the flame as he made the adjustments - the flame looked great. I couldn't help asking, when he started to pack up - "You don't happen to use a CO tester, by chance?" I might as well have asked him if his daughter was available later. "Take it easy, I'll check it myself tomorrow, I realize most guys don't do that - just wondering" didn't make it any better. So, I changed the subject. "I see you do have a smoke gun there, but must have been out of the room when you used it - where you able to get a good spot?" That inquiry went over about as well. After hearing his entire rant about his built-in "instruments" telling him everything, I apologized and still gave him a tip - after all, he did do alot, and I could check those things myself, later (the smoke and CO turned out to be fine). However, the average homeowner does not have that assurance. What I am trying to say here is - if you have the equipment, why not use it on every job? And since CO analyzers are becoming more convenient and affordable, what's the resistance to incorporating their use as a standard final step? Just my take on this.0 -
Jim, as Pete Cullen says,
he may have used a 'strap-on' tester, you don't even need a hole to use that one, :-)0 -
Didn't think of that...
Just think it's a shame that some people who do such good work can get so sour about this subject. It gets taken out of context so abruptly, it seems. Just for the record, I was taught the "no instrument" technique - but have access to all the proper instruments now, and wouldn't do any work without them. I would admit that I used to actually get insulted by the homeowner NOT showing interest in the servicing steps I took, but I got over that.0 -
Testing or Not
Where I work we have a guy that only does cleanings, he does draft and smoke, that's it. The boss was going to get electronic equipment last year but the money was spent to clean the oil tanks so we can treat oil now. Yet we occasionally pump oil from customers tanks back into these "clean tanks". As far as CO is concerned the boss can't understand why it is an issue now and never was before. When I talk about things I read on the various heating sites I am often accused of coming out with off the wall things.
The good thing is I just came back from a job interview.
ME0 -
we used to install lead water lines
and have "snowball" fights with asbestos, and never ever had to have an annual inspection on our cars, things change however!!0 -
Remember the one about the indian...
who was laying on the ground, and told the first passerby "3 wagons, 8 horses, 6 men, one with a...." and the passerby exclaimed "wow, you can tell all that about who's coming just by putting your ear to the ground?" and the indian replied " no, they ran over me about a half hour ago!".0 -
Exactly !
By-planes flew by feel .... 747,s Don't !!!
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Testing
I grew up in the oil business my father worked for the same company for 39 years I worked there for his last 10 We had our own business for 10 years I was taught to eye ball and never tested for CO. As I learned more took classes and moved from the oil side to Gas, Heat Pumps, and A/C that I realized how important testing and the proper test equipment is. The local gas company in our area use to run an add that oil heat is a Dinosour it's not the oil heat it's the oil heat dealers I was one of them. We get calls all the time from people that want to switch to gas heat because their system was so poorly maintained that they want nothing to do with oil any more. #39 did a great job but it's the companys that will not provide the training and the tools for him to do the best job that continues to hurt this industrie. If we can't learn to change with new tools, training, and equipment we will surly go the way of the dinosaur
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CO Deaths
Can someone tell me or show me where to look for numbers of CO Deaths per year that resulted from properly serviced OIL burning equipment, and whether or not the equipment was tested for CO???
I can't seem to find anything specific to properly serviced equipment. Before I get yelled at, by properly I mean by current industry standards.0 -
Another perspective worth about 2¢
First, I would like to say to the guys that can trust there eyes and ears to fully set up a burner, congratulations. Your better than I in that department. I don't do enough oil burners to even feel remotely comfortable doing that way. With gas I can tell somethings are wrong by sight and sound, but my combustion analyzer tells me so much more on both. I am also half deaf and have 20/140 eyesight, so I can miss alot. I also trusted my nose once and it cost me a trip to the ER with CO poisoning after having been in a basement with 220+ parts of CO for 45 minutes. I will NEVER make that mistake again!So I will always use my Combustion Analyzer and or my Monoxor II any day over my senses.
I find all this talk about testing interesting as I apparently was brought bass ackwords into testing by tesing for CO only first, and then moving up to total combustion analysis. But I also have worked on 95% gas my whoping 13 year career,so that may be why.
I would ask everyone to consider one thing when posting, keep in mind who could be reading these posts, homeowners, some of whom have been taken for a ride by HVAC contarctors, new techs trying to learn how to do things, or the most experienced techs. We should be posting things that will teach everybody the best ways to do things. Technology is moving forward, and we need to go with it, and keep it going. It's the only way we can keep this industry together, and lord knows it needs a lot of help. Also keep in mind the way you do things could eventually be held against you, possibly in a court of law with a jury of your peers (George can attest to this). So do the best you can do, get the best equpipment you can, and test, test, test. It may save your rear, as well as a life someday, including your own.0 -
Absolutely correct on all points!
I will say that what does the most good in these debates is that testing gets put out front where it belongs. But, I believe in the education and knowledge that goes with it.
Recently (late last winter) I discovered that about 75% of my teaching and writing efforts goes into slaying bad info, inuendo, urban legends, myths, rumors and old wive's tales. I started getting discouraged and down since I felt that I was not moving people 'forward' but merely acting as a janitor.
A good friend saw the change in me, sat me down and told me that if all I ever do is slay all those problems I'm doing my job as a teacher and in fact moving people forward.
So, enough with the 'we always did it that ways' and the 'only this way is the right ways'. Learn your jobs, do them well and to heck with the so called critics.
BTW, this year has been the busiest, most profitable and productive of my life, thank you friend and thank you customers.0
This discussion has been closed.
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