Amish Radiant

John Ruhnke

I just got back from vacation. It was great, 9 days in Pennsylvania, Amish Country, and a trip to see reletives.

In Amish Country I came across a radiant heating system!! Amish style. Many Amish have radiant and they love it! Of course I snuck into the boiler room when noone was looking to take pictures. They can't have high voltage electricity so they have a air powered pump, and milivoltage controls powered by a thermopile.

John Ruhnke

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Thanks John

where does the compressed air come from?

The Amish timber frame shops around here have a team of horses spinning a truck rear axle and transmission turning a long shaft.

Big leather belts drive all sorts of tools from the long shaft. Mostly wood working tools. I imagine a compressor could run from this power.

I don't see a mixing devise on that boiler or system? Bet that makes the Burnham folks cringe

hot rod

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John Ruhnke

Diesel Power air compressor

Hot Rod,

They have a diesel power air compressor. Their milk machines are diesel power to.

JR

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Unknown

Nice set-up

It raises an interesting question, John. Years ago, the Department of Energy (DoE) banned the manufacture of millivolt boilers. Rumor has it that one manufacturer has been skirting the rules.

I wonder if this is the case....

Does anyone know?

Noel

gerry gill

its allowed for the amish.

we have alot here in ohio..they do gravity hot water radiant here..boiler is in a pit..millivolt...why were they banned anyhow? i've turned boilers back to millivolt cause around here the power goes down. sometimes for days after an ice storm.

Unknown

John is correct

The Amish Communities do have an exemption for usage of Millivolt Controlled appliances. I know a ton of contractors that would still like to see MV controlled steam boilers. Those were the days!

Glenn

Paul Pollets

Neat!!

Maybe we'll start seeing some variable speed pneumatic pumps. I've in-laws in Lidditz & Intercourse, and have seen the propane systems, but not the radiant. Thanks for the tour, John....

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ScottMP

Why were

They banned ??

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bob_34

millivolt boilers vs. water heaters

if i remember correctly from the 1970's here in new hampshire, millivolts left or were banned because there were instances of the gas valve not shutting off. there are still a fair amount of steam and hot water millivolt boilers still in service from those days most of them now 30-35 years old. they are nice when there are power outages. a further question on the subject is how are they different from the gas fired water heater with a millivolt gas valve sitting right next to them? sort of always wondered about that. anyone know approximately when the doe ban came about?

S Davis

Draft Limit

It looks like someone forgot to install the draft limit on the draft hood.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Glenn Harrison_2

Also would like to know...

why and when they were banned. Also, why would they be banned on boilers, and not pool heaters.

By the way, cool stuff, John.

Unknown

Millivolt systems BANNED

not that I know about. They are being used on decorative appliances at your local distributor as we talk. Robertshaw is coming out with a new gas valve this fall.

Here is the confusion: The requirement for redundant gas valves (two valves in every gas valve) back in the late 1980's was the death ring for millivolt (self generating systems). The reason was that valve manufacturers could not get two valves to operate with only 750 millivolts (3/4 of a volt DC) so they could not meet the standard. Initially boiler manufacturers used auxillary control systems that would function like an ECO (energy Cut-Off) to shut down the millivolts to the power unit and then shut of the gas valve safely. On steam systems they added another pressuretrol set to open at 14 lbs and kill the pilot system. Those have sort of faded away as the need for vent dampers to get efficiency ratings pushed the standing pilot systems to use 24 volts with a thermocouple.

As for the gas valves not shutting off that was one series of Honeywell gas valves called the WW1 typically a valve number VS8138 that had problems with shutting down the pilot system on safety. The same valve series had problems with 24 volt and 120 volt valves. Those valves should be repalced when found.

Hope that clears up the mystery. Come to my classes and we will solve all your mysterious little problems.

I converted my heating system to Powerpile many years ago and it is a great system. I have spare parts to last until the year 3000.

Brad White_2

Part of the reason Millivolt systems are banned

to my understanding is the spate of Energy Codes that discourage if not outright prohibit standing pilots. I can imagine manufacturers discontinuted these to increase their corporate AFUE ratio and because of limited sales.

This is not to say the other reasons given are not valid, just a window of my own understanding.

Still, I see them for sale in steam or gravity hot water applications and why not thumb your warm nose at the code guys during a power outage? :^)>

lisa

vent dampers

Have you seen Effikal's milli-damper it runs on millivolt?

Unknown

It was an ANSI Standard

that mandated dual seated gas valves. The National Energy conservation Act of the 80's and fully implemented in 1992 mandated certain efficiency standards. I have used the Effikal Millivolt damper with a standing pilot millivolt systems and tested a warm air furnace with fine tuning to 82% combustion efficiency.

If manufacturers of boilers had their way millivolt systems would never have been done away with especially on a steam replacement.

I still change over old gas actuated systems to millivolt systems and include a blocked vent switch, and roll out switch to stay up to standards.

marc

radiant

floor heating, with a cast boiler directly connected to the slab with no boiler protection???? marc

Kal Row

year 3000...

you'd think. that by then, we will have solar down pat, that is, if we dont bring another ice age upon ourselves

Unknown

marc are you

addressing me? If so there is boiler protection by using mixing valves and controlling return temperature back to the boiler. We are maintaining a return temp around 135 to 140 at all times. With our maximum 150 degree (F) outlet that works very well and very economical with high efficency and good thermal heat transfer. When you are able to accurately control your combustion situation, flame temperature and excess air it is amazing what you can do.

You have to think outside the norm. There is nothing learned or gained by always following one way of doing things. There is a whole new world of combustion and furnace and boiler operation that we need to experiement with as long as we stay safe. If you test you will know. Think about this would I do something in my son's house to endanger him or my grandchild?

marc

no

i am addressing the original post, it appears that there are no mixing devices on the boiler pictured in first post, just asking some questions.

Unknown

I also noticed that Marc

But the photos don't really show any of the piping on the left side or rear of the boiler. so there may be a bypass there that we can't see. None the less, I still see absolutely no mixing device either.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

John Ruhnke

Good Observation, No Mixing Valves..............

Marc,

No Mixing valves. I noticed that to when I took the pictures. No mixing valves on either side of the boiler. I talked to the lady running the store. She didn't seem to have any interest. I gave her a business card and told her to have her husband call me. Noone did. The Amish are not big on phones. I guess if you run the system around 150 and tune the boiler rich, that can raise the stack temperature enough to prevent condensation. I talked to Jim Davis once about flue gas condensation and radiant. He told me that if he tunes the boiler rich enough and gets the stack temperature up high enough that he is positive that there will be no flue gas condensation no matter how low the water temperature is. Hmmmm....

I would never try it on an installation of mine, nore a repipe. But if some one refused to repipe things, I would tune the boiler rich and get the stack temperature over 450 degrees. I would tell the client, no garentees this is a temperary fix. I think it was 450 that Jim said was the magic temperature. I will have to check my notes. Of course all of this depends upon good draft and CO numbers. Sometimes the boiler is untunable. They never called, They are three states away and not a client of mine, but I may go back in a couple of years to see what happens. I looked and at the time I was there, there was no signs of any condensation problems but the installation looked pretty new.

I have a job that I did something like this. We installed Wirsbo manifolds with flowmeters on a job for a client of ours. It turns out that the flow meters leaked at high temperature. The manifolds were rated for 210 but they had a defect in the design of the orings. We replaced all the flowmeter inserts and turned the temperature on the boiler down to 140. There was a boiler bypass that we adjusted to lower the system temperature too. I tuned the boiler rich. Lowered the O2 and raised the stack temperature. Everything worked fine. In fact his heating bill was a little lower. The only problem was that the orings leaked again at 140! ouch! Wirsbo sent me new true flow manifolds for the job. We are going to change them this summer. Wirsbo has since pulled that manifold from there line because of all the problems, not just with us. They failed on other jobs too. Now I installed that same manifold on a couple of low temperature radiant jobs with no problems what so ever. I guess if you keep the temps low all the time with tekmar controls the orings don't leak.

JR

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Weezbo

Well, Good For Them!

maybe we should be the ones taking note. there are definitely areas where their stdadgey could use some insight however like wirsbo says.."radiant slab is very forgiving"

Kal Row

tune rich?...does CO poisoning mean anything to you

"lower O2"? I’ll say! Probably not enough air to support proper combustion - the primary cause of CarbonmonOxide -

a thermostatic bypass on the boiler is the way to go in this kind of install - it's strictly mechanical, and works with a gravity flow system - you also need a "buoyancy ball" type flow check on the hot outlet side of the boiler - otherwise the water will flow out of the boiler even before it gets to temp, the heavy ball on the outlet will stop the flow until the boiler get hot enough to create some serious gravity displacement flow and pop the ball off it's seat - this type of flow check is sold for hot water heaters

they come in pairs for hot and cold – but they are different,
the one on the cold inlet is just a lighter than water ball that checks upward and is unseated downward when you use hot water causing cold water to push the ball down and out of the way -
on the hot outlet, it’s a heavy brass ball that checks downward, and only regular outflow will unseat it – not single pipe gravity displacement flow, however in a two pipe gravity environment like your boiler, it can be unseated by the flow – hey, you might even get away without the bypass – just the ball check – maybe even an old fashioned flap type gravity check might do if it’s large enough so that the flap is heavy enough

S Davis

Draft Limit

Is that why they left the draft limit hanging on the right side of the boiler like that? because of high flue gas temps.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

S Davis

Draft Limit

Is that why they left the draft limit hanging on the right side of the boiler like that? because of high flue gas temps.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

John Ruhnke

The lower 02 the better..............

Yes,

The boiler manufactures tune the boilers to lean today to meet AFUE guidlines. You want to make the fuel about as rich as you can. You want the lowest possible 02 levels in the flue gas. Too Rich or Too lean creates CO. You never want to go to far in either direction. The CO levels tell you how far you can go with that particular boiler or setup. Always leave room for change to. The conditions change over time. If you do get low 02 numbers, the stack temperatures should be high enough to prevent flue gas condensation. Unless of course the boiler is of a very poor design so as to not be tunable. High levels of CO at reasonable levels of 02 make it untunable. Of course this is for atmospheric equipment.

The thermostatic bypass is a great idea. If the Amish will accept it. It is very difficult to tell what they will accept and what they won't.

JR



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John Ruhnke

More likely.............

More likely because it won't work with the milivolt system. High flue gas temperature with a good draft won't set it off.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Its a pumped system, not gravity......

.

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Kal Row

the problem with too low is not a cold flue...

but rather incomplete combustion because the heat and fuel and o2 are not connecting (in the auto world it's know as the lean miss) - only if it is really too lean will it give you CO - since a clump of unburned fuel molecules may suddenly connect with heat and o2 at one end and there isn’t enough o2 in the area to convert it all into H2o and co2, this is what called a locally rich condition, and happens when the you get to lean and the mix cools to the point where the HC's clump together – also when the mix hits the relatively cold heat exchanger (cold as compared to the fire) you also get HydroCarbon clumps with co

at the end of the day, messing with any mixture settings, without a flue gas analyzer, is “culpable negligent manslaughter” - unfortunately, too few of us are NOT GULTY!!!

Kal Row

then the bypass and checks should be an easy do

clammy

amish know whats good

you gotta dig that spriovent on the piping even the common sense of the amish know a good air elimator is always necessary try that sales tip on people with electric and noisey baseboard or air bound rads alot of times it seems in vain interesting stuff thanks for the post peace clammy