letter from a homeowner shopping radiant

Constantin

There is no question that the Polaris can be an excellent heat source, whether for domestic water and/or a radiant floor system. Its underwater combustion chamber, etc. leads to some pretty attractive numbers WRT to efficiency vs. first-time cost, etc. The reason I shied away from it were the widely-reported service issues. If those have been fixed, great. According to some angry posts I have read here, servicing a ground-installed Polaris can be a real joy (not).

I also agree with you that the maintenance issues with a unit are of paramount importance when selecting it. That is, unless you want to become an excellent service mechanic for that equipment yourself. This is one big concern WRT to the Burnham Opus unit... as much as I like it, I wonder just how viable that choice is over the next 25 years I expect to own the unit.

So I take your point that the Polaris, when used properly, can be a great water heater/heat source. However, I will always prefer to go "up-market" and buy a boiler that was designed to heat a large home from the beginning. Something that can be taken apart while standing up and something designed to last a good, long time. Besides, I want to heat with Oil, so that would only leave the Boch.

The same belt and suspenders approach of mine applies to O₂-barrier vs. non-barrier PEX tubing. Even if I could get away with having certain parts of my system w/o O₂-barrier PEX, I stay consistent with the tubing to KISS. Otherwise, one mistake can create a lot of pain for my contractor (and my wallet).

hr

Any thoughts?

I am still interested in doing radiant heat but I don't think my wife or my budget will allow me to spend $15,000+ especially since we will still have a forced heating and air system.

My architect and builder have been looking into a company in Washington state called Radiant direct. They have suggested that we install their system and controls and also using a Polaris water heater. They said they would help supply the labor because they were wanting to start doing these systems and this would help keep the costs in the $7500 to $8000 range.

I'm not sure about this idea. Do you think this is a viable option or do you think I should just forget using radiant heat in my slab altogether?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Here are some "facts" from the company they are considering website

I AM OFTEN ASKED WHY I USE FIVE HUNDRED FOOT LOOPS OF TUBING


For many years the plumbers have believed that you could not install loops longer than 200 Ft. or 250 Ft. or 300 Ft. this is based on the information they have received from the wholesaler and comes from Wirsbo® who designed tubing lengths around the cast iron boilers that are commonly used by plumbers. The cast iron boiler manufacturers ship the least expensive circulating pumps they can with their boilers. These pumps are normally a cast iron 007 Taco with less than 10 Ft of Head. 10 Ft of Head will only move water through about 250 Ft of 1/2" Pex, any more and the water moves so slow that it gets to cold before it returns. The difference in water temperature between the going out and the return is called the Delta-T or differential. By increasing the size of the pump you can easily lengthen the loops and still maintain a low Delta-T.
The problem is that you do not want the water to get cold before it returns. If the water gets to cold before it returns the output will be uneven and you will not get enough heat to offset the heat loss of the structure


I have dedicated this site to the advancement of affordable radiant floor heating. There is a very large gap between the theoretical information furnished by the manufactures of heating equipment and the information needed by the person actually installing the system. Many tradesmen do not have the experience required to design, install and troubleshoot radiant heating systems. Most plumbers have plumbed hundreds of homes but few have installed successful radiant heating systems. They have served several years apprenticeship for plumbing but are relying on the tubing manufacturer or wholesaler to give them information for installing radiant.

STEP ONE: GET AN ESTIMATE OF THE REQUIRED TUBING AMOUNT
TYPE
AREA IN SQUARE FEET
Quick Calc

Multiply Sq. Ft. by
.75 for Slabs
1.0 for Lumber Overlay
1.5 for Staple-Up

Add 500' for vaulted areas
or areas of high heat-loss.

TUBING AMOUNT
BASE
MAIN
UPPER
OTHER
GARAGE
OTHER
Round tubing total up to nearest 500'
Some older homes may need more tubing. SIP's, ICF's and well insulated homes may need less.



Step Two: Choose your fuel.


Natural Gas: This is your best choice for radiant floor heat if it is available. It will cost less per month, is very clean, and can vent through the wall.

Oil: This is your next best choice if Natural Gas is not available. It will cost at about 40% less than propane and 60% less than electric. It will need a service call once a year. It does need a chimney.

Propane: We only recommend propane for smaller or well insulated homes.






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Joe_51

I thought it was that easy at one time to...

It appears you're gonna have a hard sell to this homeowner. They are looking at the $$$$ difference.I used to think to you could just run a bunch of tube and connect it to a WH.....how wrong I was. You could always give them your card and tell them to give you a call then this job go's to hell in a handbasket. TC

Weezbo

Yikes ))

people "BUY"That? ))) WOW! ))

Ted_9

You could also have Joey talk to them.

Dave Yates (PAH)

The psychology of sales

They buy into that because it says what they'd like to hear.

Why do they think they need hot air + radiant for their project?

If they are that attuned to saving costs over quality and your knowledge, why not attempt to find a middle ground - such as their sweat equity. If that's not possible, then wish them luck and move on.

Why not install 1,000' loops & reverse the flow every five minutes?!? I was unaware that Wirsbo determined tubing sizes based upon cast iron boiler engineering(G). In reality, you can look at Wirsbo's charts to determine head for any given PEX tube and its length & from that, determine which pump best meets the curve. If the authors had any clue regarding the level of skills required of a modern-day plumber, they'd know how foolish their statement was. After stating we (plumbers) can't perform such a complicated task, they then go on to lay down a set of simple rules of thumb as the answer for adequate and proper designs?!? I wish it was that simple and easy.

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Ted_9

Well said Dave Yates.

jerry scharf_2

They were really polite

Hot Rod,

I thought the letter was much more polite than expected and giving you a chance to respond. I would take the chance to respond and will throw out a few points I would include.

1) The Internet company does not guarantee a system that actually heats the house comfortably and quietly. To spend this much and then find out it doesn't work is extremely frustrating to the people who have had this happen. I would hate to have you as a customer after you have spent your money withthem and things don't work.

We do a heat load calculation for your house and stand behind our designs. Ask any of my customers whether they are happy with the system performace.

2) In looking at the Internet company web site, I found a number of incorrect statements. These are not "matters of opinion", these are incorrect engineering statements or statements based on ignoring aspects of a successful system design.

3) The Internet company tends to gloss over the parts of the install beyond the tubing layout. That's where a good deal of the expertise and expense of a system is and can often lead to a failed heating system.

4) If you do sweat equity for things within your capability and willingness, we can reduce the cost of the job. Also, we can design the system and put the correct radiant tubing in the slab now, and hook it up when you have recovered from the current round of remodelling expenses.

Just my $.02.

jerry

Constantin

I see a glimmer of hope...

... at least this homeowner did contact you before swallowing the Polaris/staple-up alternative that the less-wise would have jumped on immeadiately. Since they seem at least somewhat thoughtful, I would ask them to come here and ask the same question and see for themselves why $5 solutions typically do not fix $100 problems. The Wall is a great place for a second opinion, and a speedy one too.

I've heard of Polaris heaters in heating applications and the mere thought of using a water heater to heat a home is making me shake my head, particularly considering the widely-reported ignitor problems on the Polaris. I have better things to wory about while on a skiing vacation (or at work, etc. in the wintertime) than whether the house won't look like an ice palace when I come back...

steve gates

when money is an issue

or is the real issue I'm usually politely blunt. If you can't afford radiant you can't afford to build the house.

If the're still standing I go with all the proper discussions and.... I've seen 'em and they don't work.

hr

My response

Hi Joe
Sorry to hear about your dad. Hope he is doing well. My 80 year old father in law live with us and I worry about his health, especially with slip and falls.

A couple issues to keep in mind. My bid included a room by room heatloss based on ASHRAE Manual J calculations. The design was done for your home in your climate. Generally it is a three hour process to do a correct heat loss calc and radiant design.

I'm leery of a one size fits all multiplier for a heat loss calculation. Hard for me to believe your home in Tulsa would use the same "multiplier" as a home in North Pole Alaska. What do you think?

My design had 5 zones, one for almost every room. Loop lengths 250 feet or less as that is what the various rooms, and design calls for required. I'm not sure how the 500 foot, proposed by Radiant direct, loops fit your zones and floor plan. Is the entire home one zone under their proposal?

I use only O2 barrier tube. Should a change of heater be needed down the road the barrier tube allows for much more flexibility. Requiring a bronze high head pump to allow you to run 500 foot loop lengths doesn't sound right to me.


You might check with Polaris, last I heard the do not warranty the heaters to be used in heating applications. The boiler I propose has an ASME listing and most codes require ASME listed equipment for heating applications. You may want to check that out with the code officials in your area, before installing non listed heaters.

I'm opposed to open systems, if this is what they have proposed. The potential for bacteria to grow in those un circulated radiant lines is a concern. The same water used for your DHW is also the same water lying stagnant in the radiant tubing. You might check with the RPA http://www.rpa-info.com/ for their advise and guidelines concerning open systems.

Also check with the local code officials, or a licensed master plumber in your area. They may prohibit a cross connection between heating and DHW without an approved backflow preventer.


Bottom line, your radiant system is "poured in stone" make sure you research all the pros and cons. As far as cost, that is something you and your wife will need to decide. Yes, the radiant is a second heating system in your case. The difference in comfort, and efficiency is what you are buying with radiant floor heat.

If this is the home you plan on living in form now on, clean quiet, comfortable radiant is a perfect match for a slab on grade home.

Let me know if I can be of assistance.

Bob

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Unknown

couple of things

In a properly designed radiant system, the polaris can be an excellent choice. If there is anyone around who knows how to work on it, and servicability is the #1 concern of purchasing a heat source IMO.

The igniter issues seem to have gone away with the new generation of polarises. they also seem a lot less finicky about the fuel line connection.

One of our clients uses polaris all the time and is quite happy with their performance. Polaris is not the sign of a substandard system. Poor design choices elsewhere, however, are.
_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Unknown

hr, you might want to point out

That their figures seem to indicate that they want to use a 16" o.c. installation in a slab application.

This is crappy. It kills the responsiveness of the slab.

Looks like this company is just another knock off of one or two we are all already familiar with.
_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Joe_51

Laying tubes is the easy part.....

I was sold hook line and sinker on the WH idea too....combined with a DIY install. I think using one of these internet companies designs short changes your whole install.From what I've learned in the last 3 month on this board and other research I would never consider again using a water heater.

Weezbo

have you considered the cost of your kitchen?

Quite often i ask That ? this is an area of the home that is rather expensive.
to balk at a price on a backflow preventor or control stradgey is the approximate equivalent of say using apple crates to build the cabinets.
Not that i am saying one cannot turn apple crates in to some beautiful cabinetry however the skill level of some one who can is extremely high and their labour charge will reflect that immediately.
the kitchen is expensive and any small changes requires alot of dollars to "Fix ".the boiler area is perhaps THE most expensive per square foot area in a home..
once the appliances and cabinets ,countertops,lighting and flooring is installed,any changes at that time will make for rather poor financial comfort.
a heating system is also something we have to lve with every day ,and the finacial comfort is built into its operational costs,safety,and ease of maintinace.
to shortchange the insulation in a home is a relavant analogy,.. not to put it in will detract from the operational costs of a home over time. to use less because it is Cheaper to do so ,will once again make the Finacial comfort of ones home much less rosy than the feeling of the insulation cost and its correct installation...
usually i will give the home owner or contractor a chance to think about what ive just said,.... Then i listen ..for any glimmer of understanding....while education is part of our job i am sad to be having to be the one saying all this type of thing to every and any ear with a mouth who may repeat it to a dark corner of the community....if someone can grasp that thier long term comfort has variables it soon dawns on them That i havent said a thing one about this boiler or that, whos pex is what,IAQ ,solar gains or zoning.... however...it does give them something to consider,and as realization often comes too late gives them something to meditate on ,over the life of thier heating system,and that seems to weed out the preponderance of the reluctant....one of my more colourful sayings is I don't want the operational cost of the home driving them to robbing the local 7-11 for grocery money ,in order to live with it. Or...When they put thier hand in thier pocket they will feel a bit more finacially comfortable finding a few dollars still there to buy groceries.

Dan Peel

shorter response

With the request you started this thread with I'd use a shorter and more sympathetic response. What you quoted them is certainly a different system and control strategy than they are giving online consideration. Why not offer them proper tube density and design lengths with upgradable controls and future zoning. Capitol cost seems to be their issue - they want what you can offer at the price of a generic and questionable design. Are they a client you want? Enjoy.....Dan

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