Ecoflex Systems Insulated PEX

Unknown

I have a job in the works that requires me to run about 100 - 125’ lengths of distribution tubing outside and underground to an addition that will get a Quick Track™ radiant floor & wall heat distribution system. I’ll have to bore a hole in the mechanical room floor (slab on grade) and come through under the footing. This tubing must then run underground close to the exterior of the existing house and re-enter the new addition where I will mount my remote manifolds. This is a North facing wall in New England and I’m wondering if this Ecoflex “Thermo Twin™” is a logical and appropriate product for this application. Also I don't need all of the whole 492 feet coil length that comes in:-( Shorter lenght available?

I will be sharing this trench with the electrical, plumbing, waste and water lines. I’ll probably end up doing the plumbing here even though I really don’t want it.

Any thoughts?


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S Davis

Ecoflex

I have used it on a couple of jobs and it worked really well, the one thing to watch out for is bend radias it does not bend real tight. It can be ordered in custom lengths but there is a cut charge. The other thing I remember is the sizes are in MM so go by their pressure loss charts because they are different than standard Pex sizes.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

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I use

this insulated PVC product. It allows me to install the PAP tube of my choice and size. The 3" InsulSeal will take 2- 1" inch PAP and 2- 3/4" PAP along with water lines and electrical condiut for wiring.

Choice of R values with up to 3" of foam. A tough water proof outer jacket.

They now have long sweep 90's (electrical sweeps) for easy of tube installation.

A whole lot cheaper than the insulated pex products and you have the ability to remove and replace or add additional lines.

hot rod

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Weezbo

one thought...

what about one 100'roll of HDPE with a couple band couplers on some 4"long sweeps? stuff the pie of your choise in it and have it spray foamed in the ditch ..balance it on two inch blue board end to end, cut 3"wide lay the spacers pipe to ground every 6' or so.foam it right under the slab or footing back fill put identifying tape back fill throw in a 1X6 back fill put a dab of the cheap orange tape and back fill a foot or so more. even if you are in the frozen north that system works..and if the orange tape dont slow some BTO down the 1X6 will and if hes particularily dense the identifying tape has to cool his heels or at least Peak his curiosity,and when the yellow foam comes outta the ground the GUY HAS to be wondering why thats comming out of the ditch:) and the HDPE...WELL It will definitely put up a Fight!:))now say you have this installed and want to drift in more tubbing...it could happen in half inch X2 maybe. if you were into more than three pieces of tubing you need to make the pull like an electrician bind them together and pull them all at one time. push the 90s over the ends (tails) after the pull ..thats the easiestway to roll.

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Weezer

you need to make sure that spray foam insulation is completly water proof. If not wet, soggy insulation will wick away heat very quickly. Like water running under a radiant slab.

Whatever product you put in the ground for heat transfer, R-value AND waterproof-ness need to be addressed.

hot rod

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S Davis

hot rod

Hey what does the 3" run per foot?

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Weezbo

that sir is true:)

our foam we use here has no affinity to water whatsoever:)

Larry Ackelson

Preinsulated piping systems for underground application

Greetings,
Lots of good conversation about methods currently used for transfering energy (heated / chilled fluid) from one building to another, underground. In that this problem is the only focus of our business, we tend to be a bit critical in our analysis of available systems and methods... and our products.

Your first objective is the keep the service pipe dry. If ground water has an opportunity to make 'contact' with the surface of the service pipe, your target is missed altogether. Nice snowmelt path but not much on energy conservation and it can certainly make a mess of the (system) delta T. It should also be noted that when you disrupt the soil (trenching), you tend to create a sort of creek - a loose compilation of sand and native soil where surrounding ground water collects. So, let's first conclude that whatever you do, make sure the service pipe is in a dry environment.

Next, let's say that I'd really rather have some sort of insulation around the service pipe - perhaps more than just air (bare PEX run through a conduit of sort). Ideally, this insulation would resist any potential to gather (and retain) moisture and have a long service life. Many popular polyurethane foams do a great job of creating thermal resistance but can suffer over the long haul from 'off-gassing', breaking down the moisture resistance (and thermal resistance)over time.
NOTE: Keep in mind that most systems that have failed (ie: leaks) are the result of corrosion on the OUTSIDE of the pipe, not the inside.
That being said, the insulation product you select to surround your service pipe must also be kept dry.

Next the issue of R-value. Let's begin by acknowledging that in your insulated pipe system, the outer jacket or enclosure is what you may call your 'underground radiator'. The outer surface area is the only component wherein energy is truly lost - forever. Conductive heat transfer from the outer jacket to the adjoining soil varies greatly depending upon soil type, moisture content, and bury depth. Therefore, the larger the outer jacket (as a function of increasing the insulation thickness), the more the surface area, the more energy is transferred to adjoining soil. Higher 'R-values' can be had, but at a cost (energy, flexibility, cost, installation time, transport, etc.) For the sake of argument, let's just say that there IS substantial analysis and design care exhibited by pre-insulated pipe manufacturers to produce products achieving the best net result.

So in your ideal world, you'd have a product available that has high quality service pipe (PEX capable of 203F), a water resistant insulation (maybe closed cell foam), and some sort of outer jacket that's fully water-tight.

Lastly, the issue of cost - not just for material but maybe installation as well (I'm sure you've all notice your payroll expenses lately). For starters, it's a generally agreed upon notion that in our industry extra time, manpower, labor, however you wish to state it, is just not available. And... that the day the general calls you in the morning to install the underground system that day because the backhoe is only going to be there one day..... is not the day you had 'extra' time available. And that the extra cost associated with installing a high quality underground pre-insulated piping system may, but perhaps not always, be really close to the cummulative 'field fabricated' costs (ie: unplanned labor drain - oops missed that service call, 1/2 day of two men trying to cram 2 pipes in a bigger one with closed cell foam, duct tape, come-alongs, etc, etc).

My suggestion;
**INVEST in the superior system -
**JUSTIFY your investment with the homeowner based on long term performance, energy efficiency, and trouble free operation. I think if they know what the risks are (high energy costs, high replacement costs (sidewalks, landscaping, etc, etc), well - what would you do?
**BID the project with pre-insulated product - your going to spend close to that amount when the jobs done anyway - If you're so lucky that you have 'extra' time - build it yourself.
**PROFIT from installing easy to install, quality products - you only get paid the the job is DONE, not by how many hours it took you.
**ADD VALUE to your hydronic heating installation by suggesting a remote mechanical room. Note: I've always thought it a shame that we design virtually silent heating systems (ie; radiant floor, reset controls, etc) and yet our customer gets to listen to the whoosh of ignition - or worse yet, oil fired products... why is that again?

Ecoflex offers an engineered, pre-insulated piping system that features Engel-method (PEX-a) service pipe, layered closed cell insulation, and a corrugated HDPE (high density polyethylene) outer jacket. It's far and away the most flexible product available making installation fast and easy. Our Ecoflex Job Ready product is pre-cut Thermo Twin (S&R in one jacket) to 80', 105' and 160' lengths combined with the Job Ready Accessory Pack (2 rubber end caps and 4 metric compression by male npt Adapter Fittings) makes bidding, ordering, and installation easy. Ecoflex is stocked in Minnesota and at several plumbing and heating wholesalers.

I hope this helps to address some issues related in underground piping and that you find reading it of value.

Good Luck,

Larry Ackelson,
National Sales Manager,
Ecoflex Systems,
(360) 756-5004

Customer Service,
1-877-ECOFLEX (326-3539)