sticker shock

K.Black

I have a customer who stated they wanted a very efficent boiler system that would really help them with nat gas consumptiion. The system has an oversized columbia (by about 40% I did a heat calc on the home) with cast iron rads in the building and no heat in the kitchen. I did some research and here was what I came up with. A new pinnacle 199, indirect water heater, non electric rad valves, outdoor reset, new piping (because they did'nt like the large older piping they wanted new copper), a piece of runtal for the kitchen, and a chemical flush and post water treatment. When I got the prices from the supply house I made my bid and gave it to them. You may have thought I was asking for their first born by their reaction. This coming from a couple that has a brand new jag in the driveway and a nice old house. I know my labor was not too high priced but the material was quite expensive. I dont know what to do at this point I have a decent ammount of time already into this job and I really don't want too loose it. I am willing to seek other options at this point does anyone have any suggestions and how do you deal with people like that?

Maine Ken

Say goodbye!!!!

lchmb

just a thought

Those who have money keep it by finding way's to wittle you down...My opinion is, if your that good and the part's cost what they cost, stick with your price. If you win you make a fair dollar, if you lose the bid they get someone who wont put as much into it as you would.. JMHO

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Welcome

to the world of hydronic heating. Most of the people that call me for heating information are blown away by the prices; it's so much more expensive than forced air heating.

You've got to get good at pre-screening your customers. Before I even go to their house, I'll ask them for a description of their home and what they had in mind for heating (radiant, radiators, staple-up, etc.). And then I'll give them a price range. Most people say goodbye and hang up the phone, but the people that want hydronic heating and that can afford it will ask me to come to their house and give them a formal proposal.

It saves everyone a lot of time.

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Mike Kraft_2

the Wall require a fee for estimates/proposal.I have just begun this practice.I must admit I have been attempting to nerve up to this for quite sometime.In a world of Yellow Page and truck ads........"Free Estimates"I felt unworthy!

Guess what I have been a shmuck!I met some people who want something similar as to what you are describing.I stopped in and met them and checked the job out.I described what my procedure is as far as design,heatloss etc.I then told them for this to be done I need a fee.(not an exuhberant amount)The fee would then be credited towards the job pending a signature.

It is fine,painless and well worth it.This enables you to scope ou the job without the worry if you will be awarded it or not.It also shows the potential clients that you go the extra mile for there comfort and efficiency.

cheese

Ken C.

People like that ...

... make me sick. They want the luxury cars (or gas guzzling SUVs). They have the older house, probably with custom kitchen cabinets, granite counters and a Viking stove. They expect a heating system of the same quality, but, whoa, on second thought, why sink all that money into something you can't show off to your friends? "Hey, honey, I like that Grohe faucet." It sounds like you put a decent amount of time, effort and care into designing a heating system. You did charge for your time, did you? Please tell me you did. Now, I know many people will give free estimates for boiler changeouts or similar large jobs, but you, sir, have gone above and beyond by doing a heat loss calculation, and you should be paid for your expertise. So don't be afraid to charge for your time spent on preparing bids (unless it's something simple). If customers like this want a free estimate for such as detailed proposal, they'll probably want the job done as cheaply as possible.

Geo_2

jag in the driveway

I all my years in the trade I can count on one hand the people in the middle/upper middle class that have stiffed me, it's always the type you've discribed K Black. They will get there discount out of you one way or another if you take the job, you giving in or "see ya" on the final payment. Walk away.

Brian_19

Price

When someone wants a price on a elaborate heat system I always give them a ball park figure before I even do a heat loss or any pricing. Most people have no idea what a system will cost. They may be thinking it will cost $8000.00 to $10,000.00 When in fact the real cost may be 20,000.00.
Also, lets face it a jag or a softail is much more fun than spending 20,000.00 on a heat system. The only people that find heat systems to be cool are us.

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Paul Rohrs

radiant is not a commodity item

> When someone wants a price on a elaborate heat

> system I always give them a ball park figure

> before I even do a heat loss or any pricing. Most

> people have no idea what a system will cost. They

> may be thinking it will cost $8000.00 to

> $10,000.00 When in fact the real cost may be

> 20,000.00. Also, lets face it a jag or a

> softail is much more fun than spending 20,000.00

> on a heat system. The only people that find heat

> systems to be cool are us.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 336&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



I priced a standard whirlpool to a contractor today. $733.45 contractor cost. Pearl CS.IFS series. Very competetive.

Paul Rohrs

Radiant is not a commodity item.....

I sell plumbing wholesale. I also design and sell radiant systems.

One contractor today asked me for a price on a Pearl CS.IFS whirlpool. $733.45 contractor cost. All of the bells and whistles, not an "A-item loss leader". (i.e 12 copper 90) It was $733.45 6-months ago, it was $733.45 today, it will be $733.45 5-months from now. It is not a commodity item like copper tube. The price doesn't change weekly.

My contractor knew the price 1 month ago, he knew the price today...He still asked me if I could do better? Can't blame a guy for trying. I think he had to polish his "surprised tone of voice" when I said NO. The same holds true for the consumer. The "act of incredulity" is all to common now.

We shipped out the Pearl CS.IFS series whirlpool today. Gas is $1.85 a gallon. No delivery charge. If I were not competitive, the whirlpool would still be in my warehouse.


Regards,

PR

Ken D.

Price

K, I wonder what your customer does for a livng. A lawyer? If so, tell him his fee is too high and you want a discount. Never happen. A doctor? Tell him he has to do better on the price for your appendectomy. Guess not. A bartender? He buys a bottle of whiskey for 8 bucks and charges his customers 5 bucks a drink. A real estate broker? He has to get real on his commission. The point is that everyone else makes a living, why can't we? The problem is that all too often our fellow tradesmen allow these people to abuse us by caving in to their demands as if there is something wrong with making a living. The reality is that they (certain customers) can make their living, but we can't make ours. They would much rather we live in the street and our kids with no shoes than pay a fair price. Better yet, do their job for free! How nice if everyone would crunch their numbers to make a fair profit instead of ripping ourselves off and making next to nothing. And once that price is quoted, Stand your ground. Sorry, I was dreaming again.

keith

negotations

Altho my sales are in commercial HVAC the principles still aply.

#1 don't get bitter, if you are get out and find another way to make a living.

#2 Qualify the customers, Most of them have no idea what the whole package is worth. They see a boiler for sale in home depot and forget about the $800 to trim it out, labor,warranty,taxes, Ins, Ect.

#3 Decide what type of contractor you are going to be. If you want to be a rip out and replace contractor or a value added contractor.

The potential customer you quoted the nice system to may have been talking to their neighbor who just had a funace yanked out and a new one thrown in. Part of our job is to explain what our " high priced systems are going to do for them", comfort, efficiency, ease of service, maintenance, quality, warranty. If you can't over come that hurdle you are just spinning your wheels.

The hardest thing for me to over come was/is anticipating the customers objections. If you can pull them out up front you can address them up front and not have to continually try and " save the sale"

Keith

Jack_21

YOUR reaction is exactly

what the homeowner is hoping for. Shock and outrage is a negotiating tactic too! You have a business to run and a family to feed. You are entitled to health insurance and hopefully to a pension plan. These things cost money. I haven't been in contracting in 20 yrs but these things never change. DO NOT APOLOGISE FOR WHAT IT TAKES YOU TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING. You can tell them that if they want cheap, there is plenty of it down the road. Just don't call you to come and fix it...because they will, meekly, with outrage at the guy that screwed ut up. I hope you didn't give them a detailed material list!!!

joel_4

sales

I don't get offeded. I to get creative. Show them pictures of jobs or yours , show them pictures of bad jobs from the competition. I use cars as leverage, I LOVE it when people are driving something nice.
"Well Mrs Jones i did notice that you don't drive a KIA. No doubt you realised that your xyz2000 was a much better value for your money even though your initial cost was much greater. The new hydronic system we have designed for you was prepared with the same thought in mind to get you as much for your money as possable."
" Now Mrs, Jones if your like most people you are only going to keep the XYZ2000 a couple more years. How long are you planing on keeping the house?"
Cars rule , the first thing I notice when I pull in. More often than not if it's a domestic Olds, Buick or something I think well no chance here most likely. Nobody who does any research buys those .A Maxima or Camry is so much nicer for the same$$or a little more.

Ken C.

Disagree with you on one point...

According to JD Powers consumer research, Buick has a high degree of customer satisfaction (I believe up there with Toyota and Nissan). American cars have come a long way.

Ken C.

Three reasons

Ken, you make some great points. Like you, I wish all contractors would get with the program and adjust their rates to cover their true costs of doing business, plus make a fair profit they're entitled to for their knowledge and valuable service (and it IS a valuable service, more so than lawyers provide, in my opinion). But I see three forces working against that dream: 1) Unlicensed plumbing/heating guys (not true professionals) who may not be insured, use cheap materials and horrible workmanship, who undercut the professional, quality contractors. 2) Then there are contractors who do nice quality work, but who lack the self-esteem to charge what they should because they're afraid of public reaction. 3) The profliferation of Home Depot/Lowe's, which try to convince the average homeowner that they can do their own plumbing/heating work. Some homeowners feel, "Why should I pay a plumber's rates, when I can do the job myself?" Yup, we professionals need to get on the same page, but you're correct, it'll probably never happen. There will always be some outfits ready to undercut us.

Lurker_2

re:

As a consumer, I think I would appreciate a level of itemization. For instance, they 'wanted' to replace all the piping. If you itemize that cost and some others, including cost of boiler etc, it may be easier to take. I other words, you are saying, without actually saying, this money is not all going in my pocket.

Sales 101, "Ma'am, If I could show you that this is affordable, would you buy it?"

BTW, the only new model Jag out in the last 6 years is the x type, less than 30k, lease at ~360/mo.
Not really 'extravagent' these days.

clammy

itemizing ?

Please if i,m going to itemize a propasal i,ll go to the bar first and 360 for a leased jag ok but look at the driveway it's parked in 40,000 bucks in pavers and a tax bill that more then i know i'll make in 6 months with OT the ones that act like they got nothing by bargaining everything they need are the ones with all the money and they got it by making everybody go broke to service or do work for them or better yet get out of the business because of there like.Once you get a special thrid sense of noticing these type ya do what you gotta do get heat or hot water and say nothing tell them there system the best and leave one of a kind and it proabaly is and as for job price all i say is the sweeten of a cheapened price is soon forgotten after the bitterness of poor quality let the tire kickers kick those tires or contractors and sooner or later they find there level peace clammy

Unknown

two things....

1st, work up the price using a Viessmann Vitodens 200, changing only the boiler and the venting equipment.

2nd, in explaining the system ask them what quality piece they want youto take out. You can always make it less expensive by removing pieces. Usually if your explanation is good they will stick with the entire bid.

Joannie_2

Options

If you want to pursue it, give them options with boilers at a couple different efficiency levels, so they can see that the more efficient equipment (that they are asking for) is more sophisticated, and has a bigger up-front cost. Don't change your prices for them. If they want cheap, they can get it.....and then end up with something mediocre at best.

joel_19

buick

I agree the quality has probably improved. However they just can't seem to get the percieved quality thing right at all. From the dash switches and gauges to the plastics and fabrics it just says cheasy. I just rented one the seat was awfull no support at all,where's my nice firm bucket like a Honda or even better a VW or BMW?? It was like my Grandmas couch. The suspension was nasty it didn't handle, or ride well either. It was soft and floaty, it made my wife queasy.
Anyhow itry to take the price thing instride. I'm more afraid when someone says "is that all" or "great when can you start" without blinking an eye. Cause then I'm thinking ohhhhhhhnooooooo what did I miss when I looked at that job?
I do give people options on boilers typically two or three that way they can see I'm trying to work with them budget wise. Or options on the controlls and or water heater.

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