Looking for Info

Warmfoot

I am looking for information on open radiant systems and why NOT to install them!! Does anyone have any resources bookmarked online or personal information that they can forward to me? I am trying to talk an contractor out of doing them and going to a closed system. Thanks in Advance

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC.

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Warmfoot

No One?

> I am looking for information on open radiant

> systems and why NOT to install them!! Does

> anyone have any resources bookmarked online or

> personal information that they can forward to me?

> I am trying to talk an contractor out of doing

> them and going to a closed system. Thanks in

> Advance

>

> Ernie Bogue

>

> Master Hydronics

> LLC.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 178&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_





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Warmfoot

No One?



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Constantin

It's all here... have you tried a search?

I have seen a lot of debate here regarding the pitfalls of open systems, particularly ones where the potable water was coming out of the same system as the heat for the home.

You ought to do a search on open systems here, followed by going after the links that various folks posted in those threads. If that's still not enough ammunition, perhaps a e-mail to the folks that seem the most knowledgable WRT open systems seems in order.

Carl PE

The primary concern with an open system is Legionella. The stuff thrives in warm water. This is the reason that "dead ends" aren't allowed in domestic water piping.

Any zone that isn't calling for heat is a dead end.

I don't know how much information you're going to find on open hydronic heating systems, just because they're not that popular. You will, however, find quite a bit of info on domestic water systems and cooling towers. Ashrae has a standard on piping design wrt/ legionella you should read.

Carl

Warmfoot

I did try a search and didn't find quite enough.....I was hoping for something published like a study or something..

Ernie

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Warmfoot

Constantin

Who IS the most knowledgeable WTR open systems?

Ernie

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Unknown

PAH , You out there?

The most knowledgeable person I know on this subject is Dave Yates. He's got TONS of info and studies on this menace to our trade. His e. mail is: behler@blazenet.net

There is an interesting (hidden) link on the RPA's website started by an internet radiant sales company owner that promotes open systems as being safe. Lots of information within those posts. Here's the link. http://www.rpa-info.com/forums/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&amp;number=A:000002&amp;SUBMIT=Go

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Sorry I was missing....

has been a very busy time for me of late. No complaints bout that(G)!

Stand your ground Ernie - you're the one who is looking out for your customer's well being.

Open vs closed systems. Shouldn't be a debate, in my opinion, once anyone takes a hard look at the reality of life and replication. We're all doing our best to survive and bacteria is no exception. If offered an environment suitable for replication and rampant growth, the little buggers will take advantage of anything that suits - including man-made environments.

First things first: Legionella are "ubiquitous" in the environment - meaning they are quite commonly found almost everywhere so long as sufficient moisture, food and suitable temperatures exist.

There are some 40+ strains of Legionella bacteria with hundreds of sub-strains within that main grouping. However, only a few of the many can adversely affect our health. Legionella Pneumophilia sero group 1 are the primary bad-boy that causes Legionaires' Disease.

There are four basic needs for growth and survival: temperatures between 55 & 133 F; pH between 5.0 & 8.5; food; and stagnation. Below 55 F, the bacteria are lethargic and can be consumed by one celled animals such as the Amoebae. But, once passing 55 F, a curios thing happens - the Legionella become the agressor and consume the Amoebae. In fact, they eat them from the inside out and use the cyst (exoskeleton or outer shell) as a trojan horse of sorts and a nursery. I have a video of Legionella bursting forth from a cyst that is included in a new video soon to be released to the public.

The ideal growth temperatures fall between 70 and 122 F and the most opportune occur at 98.6 F (ain't that a ****!).

Stagnation offers an ideal environment for rampant growth and migration.

pH? Show me a potable water system that doesn't fall into the ideal range!

But, wait a minute - aren't our existing potable hot water systems already infected? You betcha. Read this link:

www.legionella.org/100960699-1.pdf

So, the argument for open systems goes like this: the water already contains (or likely contains) Legionella bacteria. Therefore, an open system can't be any worse than what you've already got. Right? Wrong! Or worse yet: "Show me the bodies."

Ask yourself this question: Will an open system enhance or degrade water quality? Can it enhance water quality? Can it degrade water quality? Common sense alone will grant the answer.

It's a damned bacteria breeding farm.

But - what about exercising the pump to eliminate stagnation via a timer? D'OH, that's a mechanical device managing a mechanical device to provide a safeguard for public health. Do mechanical devices fail? If the timer or pump fails, when will the owners know? Not until the feel winter's chill. How many months of stagnation will possibly occur? Oops.

Show me the bodies? Stout alread has done just that (two documented deaths linked to home-based potable hot water systems) and produced conclusive proof that the strains found in the victim's home's potable hot water system was the exact source. Do I really need to see bodies attached to an open system that can't help but be a bacterial amplifier? No. Read the link I provided and study that chart carefully. Now, think about adding hundreds or even thousands of feet of plastic tubing (which has been proven to help support bacterial growth in a study published by GlobalPipe). Seed that environment with the LPS1 bacteria. Know that it takes 20 minutes of contact time at 140 F to kill most of the bacteria (not all) and think about this scenario: someone is showering; they've been in for a few minutes; the heating side pump(s) kick on and inject the hydronic system's stagnant water into the water heater; that bacteria infested water sees virtually no contact time and absolutely no contact with any water above 133F (no kill); the bather is an individual at risk (health wise: elderly or infant; heavy smoker; alcholoc; aids or otherwise immune compromised) and breathes the mist deeply into their 98.6 degree lungs where the LPS1 see the lung's macrophages as Amoebae and set up housekeeping. Can't happen? Bet me.

Another argument: OK, we'll raise the storage temp to 140 F and that'll make open systems safe. Well, what's the temp going to be 1/3 out into the hydronic system? 1/2 way? 2/3rds of the way? Oops. Stagnation?

Do the homeowners want this nonsense or is it the GC who's pushing for risking their health? Money, money, money.

Check out the CDC web site. Use Google to search for "Potable hot water + Legionella", but leave the light on when you go to sleep that night(G).

Then there's this nonsense regarding free A/C, but that's fodder for an upcoming talk(G).

Scalding raises its ugly head too.

Instantainous water heaters get a free ride where Legionella is concerned? Think about the four necessary ingredients again. All four present? (Bear in mind there's no need for all four, but all four presents a royal flush where bets are concerned.)

And forget about chlorine having any affect on the LPS1. Chlorine can't effectively penetrate biofilms, dissipates in hot water and would have to be present at 10,000 times the strength found in potable water to begin being effective.

How much does it cost to offer isolation of the potable & hydronic waters? Are your customers worth the added cost? Is a single life worth risking to shave costs?




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Ken D.

Open systems

I would be real surprised if Dan did't have something available.

sd pfeiffer

boiler sizing

I have a new boiler and I want to add a floor to my house how can I figure out if the boiler is big enough for the addition as well? My boiler is 125,000 btu input with an output of 101,000. I presently have 79 sections which are 4inches wide by 21 inches high. And 40 sections which are 4 inches wide and 18 inches tall. (Burnham style heater)