Munchkin Boilers

Ken_8

in the condensing boiler arena there is.

But then, **** do I know?

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Wild Bill

Munchkin Boilers- Opinions wanted

Good Day Wallies,
A customer of ours would like a quote on a Munchkin. I have no experience with the product other than Web visit and what the manufacturer's rep has to say,any opinions are appreciated.
As ususal,thanks in advance.
Wild Bill

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Great boiler

There's a bit of a learning curve; read through the instructions carefully and make sure you pipe it as shown. Primary-secondary piping is a must; guarantees good flow through the heat exchanger. Also, make sure your pump is on the return piping; it keeps the pressure switch satisfied.

Pay the extra amount for the extended warranty on the blower.

Alan

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Rich daplumber

BEST ON THE MARKET

I installed over 20 Munchkins.
no regrets.
With vision one option it has an outside reset and hot water priority.
Sealed combustion unit with exhaust and makeup air using 3" pvc.

ALH_3

Hmm

"Best on the market" might be going a bit far. As far as I know the jacket is a glorified Coleman cooler with fiberglass insulation supporting a heat exchanger inside. It's an inexpensive stainless steel condensing boiler. Most people will pay more for a quality product when informed of their choices. There really is a difference between a Vitodens and a Munchkin.....and it isnt just $$$. My suggestion is to read up on the Viessmann boiler and pitch it to them. If they wont go for it, suggest they might be happier with a cast iron boiler and some reset controls. I seriously doubt the savings they get from the condensation will offset the cost of future service calls.

-Andrew

Mark Hunt

hmmmmm back at you


I've installed BOTH and would be more than happy to discuss either of them with you.

I've got dozens of Munchkins in the field and in EVERY SINGLE application, they have cut my customers heating bills by HUGE amounts. 50% in a few instances.

So it's a Vitodens or cast iron boiler in your opinion?

Sorta' like "let them eat cake"?

Mark H

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ALH_3

Umm

If a new boiler cuts their heating bill in half there was something very wrong with the old boiler.

I'm not saying "let them eat cake". I'm suggesting that rather than sell a poor quality condensing boiler, sell a quality cast iron boiler. I dont know a lot about the aluminum heat exchangers. They may be a better compromise.

It's not about dollars, It's about quality. There are a lot of quality boiler manufacturers out there. HTP just isn't one of them in my opinion.

I'm not saying Munchkins don't work; they do....at least so far. The Vitodens isn't excess, it's what's necessary to get the job done well.

-Andrew

Mark Hunt

Andrew

You are correct. The customers that enjoyed a 50% reduction in their fuel bill DID have "faulty equipment".

Oh the boilers were working just fine, it's just that they were several times larger than they needed to be and they were all fixed-fire units.

I do not know of a modulating cast iron boiler.

Why on earth would I install a fixed-fire heating unit today?? Reset controls? On a fixed-fire boiler??? Aren't I just making it short cycle even more??????

Primary/Secondary piping does what on a cast/steel fixed-fire boiler?

Stack temps. "How low can you go?"

Now for the Viessman. Wonderful piece of equipment. Quiet, compact, modulating, condensing.

You spoke of "service" on equipment. Tell me how many parts of a Vitodens are field servicable. If something happens to the gas valve, can you or I service it? Adjust it?

No we can't Andrew. "You and I" are "Not Allowed". The boiler is smarter than we are right? We need "the factory".

There are ports on the exhaust of the Vito that allow you to test the combustion. Why? The installation instructions CLEARLY state that we, the ignorant installers, are not allowed to adjust ANYTHING on the gas valve! Explain that one. I guess I am just not smart enough. Will someone from "the factory" be willing to make a house call at 3am to fix things?

I do not work for a manufacturer. I work for a customer, and they trust ME. My judgement, my product, my ability.
It might be presumptuous of me, but I believe I am pretty sharp. So why would I push a product that is "smarter than me"? Now who is presumptuous?

You are entitled to your "opinion". That is fine, but you should be prepared to back up your opinion with reason and fact when challenged. "I heard", or "he told me" doesn't cut it.

I have confidence in the products I offer. I do not "run off at the mouth" about products I do not offer. I spend money to keep my name listed on the "Find A Contractor" page here and I send ALL of the customers I speak to to this site.

I love a good debate, but in order for it to be a debate, it has to have FACTS, not opinions.

Not trying to single you out Andrew, but I am tired of a vocal minority trying to over-power reality with opinion.

"Do NOT bring a knife to a gun fight".

In any case, have a good night.



Mark H

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ALH_3

Mark

For the record, I'm not pushing Viessmann boilers. I was using the Vitodens as an example to show contrast.

How am I running off at the mouth? Is the Munchkin jacket no longer plastic? Does the heat exchanger no longer rest in a blanket of fiberglass insulation? I do not need to install a Munchkin to see the compromises HTP has made in the interest of reducing cost. That's reality.

Replacing oversized equipment with properly sized equipment will always have a great effect on fuel consumption.

Primary/secondary piping protects a cast iron boiler from low return temps and the possibility of condensation. Installation economics and therefore system type may dictate a high temperature boiler...especially in a retrofit that has some or is all baseboard. What if Ultra Fin or staple-up is used? Neither will work well without a high temp boiler. The system dictates the boiler, and unless it's slab on grade, it's not inexpensive to install a radiant floor. If the customer is willing to spend the money on Quick Trak, Warmboard, Thermofin, Raupanel, etc. isn't it foolish to install a plastic boiler for a couple thousand less?

Cast iron boilers are still useful. Whether they are useful for pure radiant floor applications is greatly called into question with the availability of modulating, condensing equipment.

There's a price to pay for a modulating, condensing system. HTP has attempted to cheat this by offering a boiler that's just good enough. We need to stop this attitude of disposability.

I suspect we'll continue to disagree, but that's what The Wall is here for.

-Andrew

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Andrew & Mark

I hope you guys had a good night's sleep and feel better this morning. It's a good topic you're discussing, but things were starting to heat up.

I will probably make some enemies here, but I don't think there's that much to argue about. If you want the Ferrari boiler, get the Vitodens and if you're a spendthrift and are happy with the Chevy, get the Munchkin. Both have proven themselves to be reliable.

For my house, I'd buy the Vitodens because I like the way it's made; i.e. the heat exchanger, the testing ports on the flue, the modular construction, even the cabinet.

I like the Coleman analogy; kind of like when you buy a Suburban, you can spring some extra for the Eddie Bauer Edition.



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Troy_3

Boilers

I agree with Mark and Allen. We install mostly Munchkins. Not because they are cheap pieces of junk. That is crap! They are the best boiler for the buck. That is my opinion! And the boiler has proven itself to me many times over. We have them in car washes, snowmelt jobs,retirement homes,7 story high rises, 14,000 square foot homes and mounted over an indirect where the old water heater came out. We also install Viessmann. It is a fine piece of equipment. But not the only choice. After installing viessmann do I feel concerned offering a Munchkin- No way! With the Vision controls added to a Munchkin boiler you can economically mix 32 individual zones running all on their own outdoor reset curves. That is technology. Personally we never offer cast iron. Not because it is no good but we do all low temp. heating and if you tell me that your cast iron boiler is the best option for low temp. heating you better be a real good salesman.

Dingo

YA!

Best for the money IMHO

We install maybe 15 a year. When we had a problem HTP was there.

RTFM and you'll have no problem


Dingo

Richard Mc Ginnis

What some may call a "glorified Coleman cooler"... other educated individuals might consider it to be a perfect sound-deadening environment, or perhaps even simply a corrosion-free surface.

Then for someone to even suggest "a cast iron boiler and some reset controls" as even a comparable alternative to a Munchkin installed with it's Vision package... is simply laughable.

Me thinks Andrew might just have a hidden agenda.

ALH_3

HIdden agenda?

I suggested that if a customer cannot afford a decent modulating condensing boiler then they may want to go with a quality iron boiler and reset controls. I have only mentioned the Viessmann boiler because it is at the opposite end of the quality spectrum from the Munchkin.

I agree that the plastic jacket is a good corrosion free surface. That's a good point when installing a boiler in a hostile environment. Score one for the Munchkin.

As far as the noise issue is concerned, the Vitodens is steel and is extremely quiet.

If you're going to do something, do it right, and do it right the first time. It's a lot cheaper in the long run. That's my only "hidden agenda".

-Andrew