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copper steam pipe longevity
Brad Greeley
Member Posts: 1
Captain Dan:
I have a 50 year old house with steam heat (in half the rooms). The piping is copper. The soldier is lead. There is no marking on the pipes to indicate if they are M or L. I have been told that copper pipes with steam have a longevity of 50-60 years. Is it time to replace those pipes?
Thank you.
I have a 50 year old house with steam heat (in half the rooms). The piping is copper. The soldier is lead. There is no marking on the pipes to indicate if they are M or L. I have been told that copper pipes with steam have a longevity of 50-60 years. Is it time to replace those pipes?
Thank you.
0
Comments
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I don't think
copper belongs on a steam system.Retired and loving it.0 -
copper
If you wanted to you could cut out a piece and see what's going on inside, it's summer, it's not on, right? I'm not to crazy about copper on steam either. I've gotten in more than one argument on the job about it, I lost, there were more of them. It's easier to install and that's all it is.0 -
Copper belongs,
On the feed line and make-up water only, in a steam system. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan on this. (Sorry Ron Jr.)
Piping in black iron may seem like "too much time and effort", but is certainly is the ONLY way to do it correctly. The dead men taught us this and some of the "slackers" were too stupid to listen. Take the voice of experience as the rule.Make your customer COMFORTABLE. A bogus or poorly set-up system doesn't . Chris0 -
I cared for a system from the 50's
Ten inch header with drips at both ends fed the system. A 13 section 28a, with three risers and it's own header, fed the big header. The whole rest of the building was brazed copper piping, two pipe steam. It had air handlers with copper tubed coils, and unit heaters with copper elements, and plain ol' convectors, again copper. The returns were all copper, till they hit the boiler room, with 4" iron returns collecting them all back to the boiler feed tank.
Copper works, solder doesn't. I don't know how long it will work, it's only 50 now. It was NOOoooo trouble at all to maintain.
I don't know how to fit in copper fan coils, convectors, unit heaters, and baseboard; all rated and used for steam for nearly a hundred years; with being totally against any copper in the piping system.
Something doesn't seem consistant in the logic, to me.
I PREFER an all iron system, though.
Noel0 -
I never knew
about the copper leaching out into the boiler and causing corrosion until Tony C. brought it up a couple of years back. It's really made me think of this in a new way.Retired and loving it.0 -
I have to look into it further
The rep for Peerless for our area was at the shop a few weeks ago , looking at a very rare WBV leaker . I believe he might be the man who would know if there is a problem with the steamers that I have installed over my career , mostly Peerless , which number around 1000 to 1500 as a guess . Almost every one had copper returns .
No need to be sorry for me Chris , we just have a difference of opinion .0 -
Tony C
Now there's the brightest bulb in the box.And such a modest happy guy.Must be something to do with working on mechanicals in rendering plants:).............Pass the thighs.
cheese0 -
I'll take some, too
Just don't pass the left wings.
Anyone find anything at the Copper website?
Is there an equivalent Iron website?
What do the symptoms of a problem look like?
I'll work on this......more later.
I hope Tony comes by.
He has good reference resources.
Noel0 -
O.K. Noel.....
Should I modify my response to read "near boiler piping"?
I too, have seen soldered joints come un-done at a copper header, and that was enough for me to not even consider it .
Ron, maybe your onto something. I'm just an "old schooler" and have been taught that iron/steel is the only acceptable material in a steam system.Old habits die hard, and it's always worked. Consequently it's the only way I've ever done it. Chris0 -
Don't hang that over my head
If you started using copper for steam , Scotty and Mad Dog would track me down together and do hurtful things . I never liked the look of a pipe wrench for a hat .
Actually , we used type L for returns for a long , long time , and I haven't heard of a problem . When we rip out old steamers with copper returns I'm always amazed at how free of spooge the return is . I need to do alot more research on copper flaking off and pitting the boiler though . I'd hate to have that on my conscience .0 -
well, the local steam guru
around cleveland, who is around 80 years old and still working, and still sharp as a tack, and i get the pleasure of learning from regularly puts it this way when we stand and look at a copper plumbed boiler together- he stands there and smiles and states ''look, someone created a battery''..he's also from the old school and has more than once told me that all plumbers should have to study physics..i'd like to hear tony's opinion also.gwgillplumbingandheating.com
Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.0 -
Hey...........
Die Hard..........battery.....die hard..........battery
cheese0 -
I know that I pipe my steamers in black because I honestly believe what dan`s book told me about copper on steam.
But right across the street from me is my brother`s house with a 20+ year old pensotti steam boiler with all copper and soldered joints and it`s never leaked.
It`s piped correctly otherwise with the risers and header and all but I still shake my head.0 -
Copper...
... in applications like unit heaters, heat exchanger bundles, coils in HVAC units, etc isn't usually any kind of corrosion problem, as long as they are piped and trapped properly. If the copper bits only see steam, and not condensate, things will be fine. Lots of things like air intake coils have steel headers with copper fintube brazed into them. When there's copper piping or components with CONDENSATE in them, then there's the potential for corrosion problems. The copper itself doesn't usually really suffer much - it's the dissolved copper that can get back into the iron or steel boiler that causes the problem. It's not always a problem, because there are installations with copper condensate piping that have lasted for decades. But the potential for trouble back at the boiler exists. Something like a lot of wet steam carrying-over in the system can turn the potential problem with copper condensate piping into a real one.0 -
You...
...guys are giving me too much credit. I almost always wind up with more questions than answers.0 -
Condensate zone on steam boilers
I'v almost always seen these piped in copper, and done so my self.
Where and when would I look for symptoms of a problem, on one of these?
Noel0 -
Other Than...
...getting a boiler water treatment outfit to test the water for dissolved copper, the only way I know of is to look for random pitting on the water side of the boiler. The pits are easily mistaken for those caused by oxygen, though. Pitting is bad news, regardless of the cause. The oxygen related pitting is easier to deal with - don't let the boiler sit for weeks/months cold with the operating water level in it (drain it), and/or stop the on-going fresh water make-up. Once you've got the copper related pitting, the cure is often worse than the disease, because it's some kind of ugly acid wash to get the copper off the boiler. As long as the copper particle is in contact the steel or iron, with water/moisture present, you've got a galvanic cell.
If you have a steam boiler that's developed a leak, it's important to determine why, because if it's a system related problem, then the replacement boiler will very likely fail before it's time, for exactly the same reason.0 -
You guys need to read some I&O manuals
to put this subject to bed once and for all, it voids most warranties, FACT!0 -
Be specific, George.
What voids who's warranty?
Baseboard? Indirect water heaters? Everhots? Fan coils? Copper unit heaters? Copper returns? Convectors?
Do you know someone that had a warranty refused for "copper damage"?
It doesn't happen in my department. I work for a warranty department at a cast iron steam boiler manufacturer, we've NEVER turned down a steam boiler warranty because someone had a copper pipe connected to a steam boiler. Incorrect piping, definately. Copper, but piped correctly, is not a warranty buster. I HAVE told customers that soldered copper headers come apart early in their life, and the customer had it changed. That's not the same as refusing a warranty claim.
I've serviced and installed steam for over 20 years, even had manufacturer's on jobs, the copper wasn't a problem. The header with welded tees and no swing joints didn't pass, but the copper wasn't a problem. This was a 4,000,000 BTUH system, I'd call it commercial.
I'm LOOKING HARD for evidence that proves or disproves this, but it is pretty scarce.
It sounds a bit like the arguement for not using new oil burner technology. No proof that the old ways shouldn't be changed, but there sure are a lot of opinions.
I'm one of the guys that swears by iron, you guys have seen my work. To be fair, though, I can't fail a warranty claim on the basis of what I've read here, and I don't intend to.
Noel0 -
I'd rather not answer on line about the OEM concerned, but
not only have I seen it become a warranty issue, but it also held up in court.
If you look at the leeching that occurs from copper pipe on steam it has and does cause a reaction into the CI boiler. The case I mentioned even had a metalurgist that was called in to prove it, he did. The OEM in question has it in his literature and it is readily available.
I've piped boilers in copper and not ashamed to admit it since I was taught to do it, it was wrong and so were my teachers. I've learned since then and would never teach or do it now. But, with that said I still would pipe near boiler piping in copper below the water line, at that point it's not steam piping it's water.
When you have to hook up water heaters, condensate systems, etc. copper is much faster and it will last as long as steel IME. Below the water-line or Hartford Loop I'll go with copper, above that it's steel all the way!
As someone else said very well, we need to study some physics and chemistry and the answers all float to the top.0 -
From A...
...corrosion point of view, I don't see steam in copper as a big issue. I would stay away from copper in steam service, as I have other concerns about it, but I see condensate in copper as a far bigger potential corrosion issue, back at the boiler.
I know several really good industrial water treatment guys, and to a man, they HATE to see yellow metal (typically screwed brass valves) on boiler piping - feedwater lines, blowdown piping - anywhere.
I wonder how many of what are deemed to be "oxygen" pits are really copper related pits? Very often, it's tough to tell them apart - even with somebody trained and experienced looking at the damage.
Copper steam and/or condensate piping - how much money can anybody save on a job, going with copper over steel, after both material and labour are added-up? If there's any money at all to be saved, I can't see it being enough to balance-off the potential can of worms that's being opened.0 -
Piping in steam systems
I talked with our technical director and he stated in his 20 plus years in industrial situations, steam pipes were almost always CI or steel. He could not remember seeing any copper. That however was not true in hot water
systems. He said he definately would not have any copper in condensate lines. I see his comments lining up with Dan's.0 -
I'm sorry, should have been
more specific. I would only use copper on small residential, never on C/I applications.
As to longevity, I'm a Boston guy (lots of steam) and although I wouldn't do it now (already said) I know of three copper jobs 30 years old still in, gotta make ya wonder!!!0 -
In And...
...of itself, copper is not a problem. Another factor has to show up, combining with the copper, to get things rolling. Something like somebody deciding, because their brother in law read it somewhere, that they should "add some chemicals to their boiler". If one can is good, then 2 or 3 must be better... The conductivity goes sky-high, the water level is bouncing out of the glass, and the carry-over starts. If an event like that happens, when copper condensate piping has already set the table, then that's often the kick-off. My thought is why deliberately put half of the equation in place?0 -
In And...
...of itself, copper is not a problem. Another factor has to show up, combining with the copper, to get things rolling. Something like somebody deciding, because their brother in law read it somewhere, that they should "add some chemicals to their boiler". They usually don't test anything to see what, if anything, is needed. If one can is good, then 2 or 3 must be better, right? The conductivity goes sky-high, the water level is bouncing out of the glass, and the carry-over starts. If an event like that happens, when copper condensate piping has already set the table, then that's often the kick-off to boiler corrosion. Or it could be left overs from the initial boil-out skimming procedure not being flushed properly.
You need something else to show up, in addition to the copper piping. That other factor may NEVER show up. But it could, and sometimes does. My thought is why deliberately put half of the equation in place?0 -
No arguement on that one,
I've tested Ph for 30 years BEFORE adding anything. I make a lot of money with my little electronic unit, best kept secret in my arsenal, ooooops ;-)0 -
Anybody having this happen on tankless coil boilers?
This whole conversation started around residential boilers, and this is where my focus is.
Residential boilers with brass gauge glass trim, a brass pigtail, a copper tankless coil, copper water feed piping and brass valves, connected to an Everhot all copper heat exchanger for the pool, and a bunch of steam convectors made of copper coils.
This isn't an odd case, most steam boilers in residences have some of these items connected to them.
Voiding the warranty on these boilers doesn't happen.
It reminds me of a sign in an auto parts store that read:
"All electrical parts carry 90 day warranty. No returns on ANY open packages."
No kidding!
Noel0 -
Just read 3 install manuals online
Burnham , Peerless and Weil Mclain oil boilers - which with Slant Fin make up a big chunk of the residential steam boiler market . The use of copper on steam systems is not brought up once . There is no mention of voiding the warantee if it is used with a Burnham boiler . And with Noel's post , I would assume Slant Fin is the same .
This was just to confirm what I checked out a long time ago . I do not want to void a warantee knowingly .
If there is a boiler manufacturer out there that specifically forbids copper , please let us know . Very important information if the replacement is going in a home with existing copper returns , convectors , or even a coil .0 -
Average
of 50 percent of the steam systems we see have copper for returns . Maybe 1 in 20 we replace are due to leaking . The vast majority are changed because the homeowner wanted to upgrade , and maybe save some fuel .
You would definitely need a metalurgist expert with background knowlege in residential steam to differentiate a boiler failing from copper pitting , compared to a boiler failure from normal wear and tear . I've split my fair share of steamer sections and I could not tell why they fail ( other than the ones with a nice orange plume of dry fire ) .0 -
Just wanted
to thank you "pro's" for some excellent conversation.
With very limited experience in steam it has been enlightening to read such professional posts without some of the rancor that can usually be read with a controversial subject.0 -
Sorry, false alarm,
just got through reading the OEM in questions manual, they changed it recently. I guess that proves again that sales talk!0 -
Many of my fellow experts can be bought,
been there, seen it! CYA, baby. CYA!0 -
Proof
I'm glad that you found the proof, I've been poking around all day trying to nail down just how extreme this problem is. We all agree that iron and steel are the preferred and accepted way to pipe for steam.
Now, what's the proof?
Noel0 -
I meant that they no longer ban
the use of copper. The proof is that in most organizations sales speak louder than anything!0 -
my uncle piped one
about 40 years ago, with copper. the piping looked o.k. but the 40 year old boiler did leak at the waterline. bob
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.0 -
Typically...
...if they pit out at the water line, that's oxygen corrosion from sitting cold, with water in them.0 -
thank you
As a "steam rookie", I appreciate the information in this thread. I've never been one to blindly do a job " just because it's always been done this way", I want to know why.
Furthermore, this topic could've been smothered in emotion and obscured as so many threads seem to get. Our "human-ness" and egos get in the way
Thank you Gentlemen for another chapter in my education.0 -
Since it's fall now,
I'd hate to lose this post.
For your review, folks.
Noel0
This discussion has been closed.
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