Hiring a pro for boiler install

Ewan

I'm a DIYer homeowner considering a hydronic system retrofit to replace an existing oil forced-air system. I've had a heatloss done and received a system design proposal from a reputable and professional radiant design firm with whom I've dealt remotely via email and phone. I've done my homework and, thanks in large part to The Wall, believe I can make educated decisions about how to proceed.

I'm now looking for a local heating professional to supply and install a specific boiler make & model, but be willing to let me do the rest of the installation work per the proposed design.

I'm hoping to receive some feedback from this forum about how this sort of arrangement is perceived or handled by heating contractors. Is it work that you feel is best avoided due to the gray-area surrounding 'who's responsible for what'? Or is it seen as a desirable and straightforward job given responsibility for the design rests with somebody else?

I obviously intend to be upfront about the situation and my desire to do as much of the work as possible, but I'm unsure what reaction I should expect.

Any feedback would be most appreciated.

Unknown

That's being honest going in.

Where would you be doing this?

Some guys here do what you suggest, some won't touch it.

A lot depends on the time of year, too.

Noel

Ewan

Hiring a pro

Noel,

I'm in Ottawa, Ontario. Probably looking at needing a boiler for this Fall, which I gather is probably a busy (busiest?) time for heating guys.

Ken_8

Ewan, consider this angle...

Consider how much you make an hour at your regular gig. Now add to that national and provincial taxes paid, add health care, vacation, holiday pay, etc. and adjust your actual compensation hourly rate to the not so theoretical "perks+" you don't actually see in your paycheck - but benefit by nonetheless. Got an hourly number in mind?

OK. Now imagine that a guy who is proficient in installing the sort of heating system you will be converting to, is in the same income "boat" you might be at your normal job. Of course he must deal with his overhead (or his company will) and may be roughly two or even three times as expensive as your "adjusted" total comp. hourly rate. Does it not make sense that the heating guy will be roughly three times as quick at doing what you must learn to do - and produce "guaranteed" workmanshiip - while you alone will be responsible for anything you touch (and probably be blamed for any/all system shortfalls)?

See where I'm going with this "logic"?

He can produce three times more "work" per hour than you are capable of, at perhaps double what you gross an hour as an employee of others. If he is three times as fast for double what you make; had you worked instead of playing contractor - you could have thrown ALL performance, leak, noise, comfort and installation responsibilities on the contractor - and removed yourself from ALL liabilities and warranty issues!

I'm NOT suggesting you not get involved. I'm suggesting you ponder your natural ineptness at doing something you have never done before, nor have any formal training in - and in the process, allow a very easy "out" if the project has any shortcomings in that we all know the contractor will say, "Hey pal, you wanted to be my helper." "We both hung that tubing and I remember I didn't shoot that nail through the tubing in that area." I was working on the OTHER side, over here."

And, you think to yourself, "I recall exactly where he was stapling tube - and his name was all over the area, the one that has the nail shot into the tube"!

Demo work? Different story. You want to save the demolition costs of removing the F/H/A ducts, grills, furnace, etc., and sheet rocking the register holes, sub-floor patching, THAT's fine. The contractor would love to have you do the demo work I suspect anyhow. In that context, he would be roughly working at the same speed as you - so there is no significant "time-advantage" to you or him doing demo work.

Time is money. Think it over. Let us know how it goes.

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Weezbo

May be you can.....

If i get your drift , you would install the pex...according to someones designe ,get some gypcrete,trash out the existing F/H/A install the new hrv,install the new insulated stainless L vent,clean up the space,paint the walls and let the guy do his thing ...with the specs of the boiler that you chose.? some Contractors will go that find they actually like a contractor/homeowner:) ....one thing though some times the designe stinks on paper and is expensive to install with certain "Features" at least you might allow the contractor some leeway in control stradgey...that afterall is his balleywick.

bruce pirger

Ewan, I am a DIYer and I did EXACTLY what you said. I installed my PEX in the slab, my 2" insulation undearneath, attached everything to my manifolds, performed the pressure test, monitored the pressure during the pour, gave the guys I was pouring with all sorts of constant reminders about the tubing, and have everything ready to connect to the heat. I spent many hours reading Seigy's book (I'm a research engineer), I did my own heat load (before the tubing install), I designed everything. I spent days reading all the Tekmar controller manuals and design guidelines, I bought the Wirsbo design manual, and read it all, and ejoyed it to boot!

So, then I himmed and hawed about installing the boiler and near boiler plumbing...but fall was coming, I wanted hot water, and I had never touched a oil burner before. So, I said, OK, I will look. I found some folks who 1. Knew as much as me. 2. Knew more than me. 3. Understood what they did and did not know. So, with great fear, I am certain, in both of us, after a brief meeting at a homeshow, we met up at the house. Well, to hear the installer talk, he said after talking to me for 20 minutes on site, it was very clear to him that 1. I knew what I was doing 2. I did things right. 3. We'd work together very well.

Truth be told, I had a BLAST working with Mark doing the install and near boiler plumbing of my Buderus. He still thinks I overkilled the design with the Tekmar 363 control, could have done it cheaper, but indeed, will admit it is one of the nicest design he ever saw.

I wrote up a couple of pages describing what I did, my calculations, and a couple of paragraphs about what I was looking for. Viessman Vitola or Buderus. Tekmar control. Etc. BUT, I also talked in this little note about all the horror stories I had heard about, and that I did not want to be part of a new one.

So, they gave me an estimate, I signed the contract, and we were off.

I once had a problem with the Buderus post purge relay thing...gave them a call...uhmm...boiler won't work. Well, within the hour, Mark, the main installer, the guy I worked with, show's up. Yeah, he says, I wouldn't want to miss a chance to come back up here and work with you again!

That comment meant a lot to me.

So, yes, if you look, you will find good folks who appreicate your hard work, and will work with you to make this all happen. Just respect their needs, i.e. they have to get paid and make a living, and I'm sure you'll get along fine.

While we hear for more horror stories on this site than the flowerly happy ones, no doubt, they happy ones exist!

For me, there was the issue of cost and expense...but also the issue of doing it myself. I built from the footers up, well, was in the pour of the footers and backhoe digging too....so it was "tough" for me to decide to do this. BUt, being the first time with an oil boiler and all, efficiency measurement and tuning, etc. I knew it best to have help. Truth be told, I learned so much, made a friend, I'd do the same thing again NOW even though I think I could do it alone.

Good luck! Don't be discouraged. BUT, be prepared to give the respect and understanding necessary...and also, do your homework. Don't pretend that you know something you don't, it will piss them off. And absolutely rightly so!

Ewan

Hiring a pro

Ken,
Thanks for the reply... your points are well taken.

Weezbo,
The proposed system is mostly HW baseboard with possibly one section of radiant ceiling... not as involved as a thin pour slab, but I don't gather the actual system configuration would affect how a contractor would feel about a 'collaborative' effort. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Weezbo

You will find someone .....

You probably will start building home just ta doit again:)) repeat business with someone you have already worked with is the way to roll...they at least have some general idea of some of the minor technicalities that can crop up :)Good Luck.

EJW

Nicely said Ken

EJW

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Homework

Both literal and figurative is the requirement. Do it well and you'll have success similar to bpirger.

If you have the time and general aptitude there is little in life more rewarding

Use a sound, proven, logical method of heat transfer and determine how you want to control based on your heat source. Homework!

Ken_8

EJ,

I learned that one the hard way.

I can go out and make some serious "cake" doing what I know how to do best. In my younger life, I used to build race cars. In this day and age of hi-tech specialization, I can't afford a $6,500 engine analyser, a double frame garage lift and the 40-grand to own every tool Charlie Snap-On offers.

It is utterly stupid for me to venture off into an area that has evolved from a Holley double pumper - which I could rebuild and rejet in my sleep 40 years ago - to messing around with a box injector with EEC-VI program module.

Keeping up with the leaps and bounds of hydronic heat keeps me busy 12 hours a day, seven days a week.

I sleep nights. That's because I know he (my mechanic) knows what he's doing. And, I know what I'm doing.

I sleep very well. So does he. It works.

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Paul Mitchell_2

We did it here

in NJ. Must admit I was a little worried considering my patner sold the boiler job and I hadnt seen it...Not worried about my partner but just the fact the I didnt see it. This guy dealt with a radiant company on line. They did a load on his home and sent him everything less the boiler and boiler mate. He did all the underfloor radiant himself. We did the rest...manifolds etc. came out great. He did his thing we did ours.

Ewan

Test

Ewan

Ewan

Thanks to all

for the helpful replies and advice.

Stef Davis

Hiring a Pro

I hope I am responding to the thread about DIYers and their RFH adventures.
I too am building my own house, which is to have RFH.
I read Siggys book forward and backward. Devoted most of the summer to it.
I intended to do it ALL myself. including the boiler, but after reading this thread I have changed my mind. I can run the tubing, install the manifolds, etc. but actually installing the boiler, getting the expansion tank in the right place. installing the mixing valve jproperly. and most of all designing the circits in each zone. Well, I think I'll try to find a Pro.
Here on the Western Slope of Colorado, there is precious little RFH. I have spoken to Mark Eatherton on this site, and will tryl to contact him.
I think the boiler and such stuff is best left to someone other than me.
Stef

Weezbo

Good Thinking Stef:)

not to diminish the written word however falling behind the learning curve on twisting the wrenches is a whole nother experience in and of itself:)