Green - Ugly Piping

Unknown

An antifreeze/water hydronic fluid mixture caused the condition as it is shown in the attachment photograph. When I lived in Boulder, CO we referred to this as “Green Disease” in potable water systems. The Ph of the water was found to be 9.6. Since this system will be replaced,cleaned and treated with Rhomar Water Systems™ products, I’m not worried about this happening again. The picture shows only one area that I found to be greener than others. It is EVERYWHERE.

Just wondering; Is their anything more I should know about this condition? Why does it happen? What are the long term ramifications of this?


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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Patina

I think that's just the brass reacting with the hot, alkaline water. It looks something like what a corrosive flux will do when not cleaned off the pipe and fittings.

I'd hit it with a wire brush.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

When I've cleaned up copper sweat joints that weren't cleaned or poorly cleaned (sorry to say some were mine before I became vigilant in this regard) I found that some 3-in-one or similar light oil combined with wire brush or steel wool work great.

Unknown

Alan. I'm just not sure what Patina is?

Huh? Please enlighten me. Alkaline water did this. Is this problem bad or not so bad? What would I see if the water was acidic?

What would you reccomend to a client with this green piping observation?

Just trying to learn more aboyt water quality.

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EJW

Patina

Leave a peice of copper outside to get rained on for a week or two and the greenish result is called patina. EJW

hr

The mean green

seen in DHW piping is often caused by excessive solder flux. Over fluxing or lack of proper flushing will cause this green you see. It happens inside and outside the pipe by the way.

Water soluable fluxes help a lot for the inside pipe condition, but may still "green away" on the outside. Not a bad idea to use a damp rag to touch up your solded joints as they cool if you have bad fluxing habits Pin holes caused fro INSIDE copper tube are often at the point where the flux trail stopped it's run

Soft water with CO2 15 ppm or more will cause greening. Especially if the new copper has not be able to build up a protective coating inside. You will get a blast of green or notice that blue/green stain around tub drains, etc. The hotter the water the greater the attack. We will see this big time if we start circulating water above 130F and using point of use mix valves, I predict This will compound if velocities are not kept in line i.e. oversized DHW recic pumps! Something to keep in mind as we look to running 140° F or more, throughout the DHW systems, to address the legionella issue.

Hydronically speaking, ph is the most common cause of greening. Glycol added to a dirty or "fluxy" system is recipe for disaster. I suspect the first exit a "fluxy" water sees is the air purger. Very possible to get a heavy concentration at that bleeder I suppose.

Overheated glycol gets weird and alters the ph to become agressive quickly. A boiler with a failed pump, or undersized pump, especially copper tube or low mass HX boilers can cook glycol in seconds. Stagnent solar panels will even cook glycol.

Spend some bucks at the CDA website. They have tons of info on copper related corrosion, causes and prevention.

www.copper.org

hot rod

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Cosmo_3

Patina....

This is how I learned it... was working a new house, and the builder was explaining to the new homeowners that there is no way to prevent the beautiful copper flashing from corroding green. Then the homeowner's wife said in a distinct London accent with an air of superiority... "My dear man when something costs so much you don't use such garish words as corrosion, but rather patina. Patina IS the look we are after my good man. Now about my wine cellar...."


Cosmo Valavanis
Dependable PHC Inc

ScottMP

I am suprised

More of you have not seen this ?

Gary, what you are seeing is from anti-freeze that has gone acidic. HR is correct that the ph has changed in that mix of water and is now eating the copper and non ferrous parts of the system.

Note the Blue/green staining, that is not patina nor is it from excessive flux ( Man, you just can't get that much on a fitting ). Note that it is coming from the joints. In my experience glycol will leak from a joint more than water will, maybe its more viscous (sp?). Maybe water evaporates where the glycoll leaves behind a residue that then eats away at the copper.

What you have there is a anti-freezed system that was allowed to go bad without inhibators added. Flush the system, add new glycol ( if the system needs it ) and warn the customer that leaks are on the way.

My two cents

Scott

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matt gilbert

green stuff

I get that same greening in my home water system. I have a well system and would call the water quality, poor. Very corrsive. One drop of water on copper or brass will, over time, do exactly what you have there. I have a very high Iron contant. If you don't have any leaks or dips you won't have a prob.

Matt

GaryDidier

Corrosion

I agree with Scott on this one. Allthough flux can cause corrosion and leaks this looks like a classic case of bad glycol. Acidic glycol attacks the seals and gasketing in the system especially the air venting systems. I would have the offending parts replaced, the gasketing replaced and clean the water side with TSP for a few days. Then flush the heck out of the system and install fresh glycol if desired. I see a fair amount of this when glycol gets older than 5 years. I advise my customers to replace antifreeze at 5 year intervals. Good luck.

Gary from Granville

Unknown

Acidic?

That's what I originally thought. However when I tested a sample of the fluid, the pH was as high as 9.6 This confused me. Will an alkaline water/anti-freeze solution cause this to happen? I thought low pH levels did this kind of thing.

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Dwight (Rhomar Water Mgt.)

green gunk

Gary, the blue/green deposits you are seeing is oxidized copper due to corrosion. High pH (over 9.2) in the presence of ammonia is very agressive at corroding copper and brass. It is likely the glycol in the system contained either an alkaline phosphate or borate/nitrite as a corrosion inhibitor. If the system was not properly cleaned, bacteria can break these down to ammoniam hydroxide causing the problem. It is also possible that ammonium hydroxide may have been used in the glycol to neutralize acid formation. This theory is supported by the 9.6 pH reading you are getting. Does the system sit idle for long periods of time? This would also support bacteria growth.

Regardless of the exact cause, properly cleaning the system and adding a quality treatment should solve the problem. (After all the leaks are repaired.)

Dwight