started HVAC class, not to good

LEAD PIPE

I started class on wed. I'm going part time at night so I've only had 1 class so far. Class was a joke. People were out of control. One kid gets up in the middle of class and says, "I'm leaving cuz if I stay I'm going to start knocking people out" as he's leaving he says "I hope all your car windows aren’t busted when you come out." there were a couple of other almost fights from other people in class too. This was not "lab" this was in the class room in front of the instructor, who took 4 hours to teach something that should have taken 40 min. out of the 20 people in class there were only 2 or 3 others that were paying attention. I am having second thoughts about this class. Anyway, I needed to vent.

Firedragon_4

Where was this, answer

off line if you want.

The instructor should not be teaching if you mean what you say (I believe) there are options including the state Board of Education. We have enough people in this business pretending to teach, that's a disgrace.

Tim Doran_2

Societal Trends

Hope I spelled it correctly. Society has shown a trend towards sending the "misfits" "problem children" "un-educatables" what ever you wish to call them, into the votec programs. In my opinion it is a cop out on the part of the traditional educational systems. This also has a lot to do with some of the negitive perceptions of our trades. Robert Bean has some real good thoughts on this as well. Maybe he'll share a few if he see's this post.

Tim D.

gerry gill

thats probably because

the judge can no longer say ''go into the army or go to jail''..shame, cause the military discipline staightened out many a would be criminal.

Firedragon_4

I have no problem with

a student wanting to leave becaue the instructor (sic) doesn't know what he's talking about and is not qualified to teach.

If you read the posting the knowledgeable even knew something was wrong, why would the stupid stay. Then again, who is the stupid one here?

People have to stop cataloging people, votec problems are not ALL for the problem cases. I'm a product of vo-tec, damned proud of it and resent those types of statements.

Blame the system, damned straight, but I've seen people with Master's Degrees act like clowns, criminals and buffoons too!

IMO, what's lacking here is an instructor who is interesting to listen to and has something to teach, that's all folks!

Ken_8

Tim Doran,

You are so absolutely, dead nuts, on-the-money, accurate with that observation.

When I tried to enroll in a few electronics courses at Essex County Vo-Tech back in the early 60's, I was the only one without the leather coat - or the "attitude" and engineer's boots that so frequently came as part of the package. The "punk" mentality overwhelmed the class and faculty.

Vo-Tech schools, by and large, are placement centers for mis-fits who could never cut it in mainstream education and the system panders to these cretans in ways that exacerbate the condition ad nauseum.

Are there exceptions to this completely negative situation? You betcha! But they are entirely too few and far between to make any substantive difference - generally.

I suggest it is precisely this negative dynamic that precludes truly bright and gifted young men and women from entering our trade - and continues to promote incompetence and absolute medocrity as well.

What a shame.

To suggest unions and/or union apprenticeships is the answer, is equally ludicrous. Right to work rules and lack of any union attention to our trade, i.e., "wet heat," is non-existent. This, coupled with insessant short comings with union "programs" that are typically based upon nepotism, cronie-ism and special "favors" for a select few - are notoriusly tolerated and in most locals - the only way to do business or even get "in."

Absolutely tragic IMHO

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

LEAD PIPE

The school is Porter & Chester in Connecticut. I know it is the instructor’s problem because he had no control over the class. On Monday an administrator is sitting in on the class, he “warned” us about this. Hopefully the class will be better. If its not I'm out. If it is I am going to the instructor after class and demanding that class be this way every day. If I owned a business in this field I would sign up for a HVAC class and go for a week (this school offers a week trial then you can withdraw and pay nothing) If I saw someone who looked squared away I would offer him an apprenticeship. I can't immagion the stress I would feel having one of THESE kids driving one of my trucks and going into customer’s homes. Anyway thanks for letting me rant. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow

Ken_8

If you want a class in \"super-sell\"..

Try and take them up on the one-week-cancellation clause.

Guaranteed some quasi-adminstrative "heavy" will intercede and try the utmost to convince you to stay on board. The pressure and excuses will amaze you. "Why don't you give it another chance" will become the new school mantra.

Been there and done that. I really Hope I'm wrong this time.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GaryDidier

Vo-tek

My dad drives a bus for our local boces school. Recently the kids got so out of hand that after three warnings he had to stop the bus. State troopers,sherrifs deputies, rescue squad and an administrator from the school had to respond to straighten out the situation. Dad says it is caused by a core group and the rest are intimidated by them. After all this only one kid got suspended and several got detention. With almost no discipline or consequences the kids remain out of controll. Sure is sad for the ones who really want to make something of themselves. I have been there.

Gary from Granville

Firedragon_4

For management to 'warn'

you of the situation, sit in and do nothing tells me they don't care, sorry I've seen too much of this before.

The only way a private school will learn is to withdraw, bad-mouth the crap out of them to everyone in the trade and more importantly file a complaint with the State Education Board.

I'd also consider letting Channel 3 in on it, they're always looking for that kind of stuff and then I'd also file a complaint with the Attorney General's Office just for good measure.

We need to set a working example of what our trade(s) are all about and schools that allow this, don't belong in the system.

There are some people looking at the voc-tech, trade system problem nationwide on a 'big picture' basis, watch for it, it's going to come from out of left field!

ernie_3

agree w' Firedragon

Went to a local trade school for 2nd class firemans (night class). Teacher arrived late and wanted to cut out early. Most of the 'adult' students were psyched. I found out later that most of them were on their employers nickel. I however had ponied up the 1200.oo for the class. I spoke w' the administrator and he straightened the teacher out. I feel he resented this. He told the class someone ratted on cutting out early. It was a turn-off to the field. Was only hoping to be fireman second class to afford time to study while watching pressure gauges. Anyway, like Firedragon said....make noise!

Unknown

Drop out &

Go to work and gain your experienc there. Punks flood the alternative education scene. Same thing happend to me in high school @ a vo-tech. (Minuteman tech Lexington MA) For me it was a waste of time. Too bad the instructor wasn't a tougher guy. then again, why should he waste his energy. I dopped out & went to work for a real hard nose leatherneck Marine. He told me I should pay him rather than being paid a salary. He's the plumbing inspector now.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

John,

For your own safety, leave & never go back. There are other ways to learn this trade. Seek and you shall find.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John R. Hall

John

Please share the follow-up with me (johnhall@achrnews.com) or here at the Wall. I'd like to know a little more about the situation because it is a stark contrast to the project I am working on now for The News -- the "Instructor of the Year" award -- for the HVACR industry in 2004.

Is the administrator going "in cognito?"

LEAD PIPE

Here is my situation, maybe you guys can give me some guidance on what to do. I am a cop with a year to go until I retire, 40 years old. I work the night shift 11pm to 7am. I became interested in HVAC when I had my boiler installed last year. The installer wasn't familiar with the W/M ultra and there were some problems which led me to the Wall. I became more and more interested in heating and Mark's CO thread really jumped out at me because I've seen what CO can do First hand. I attended Jim Davis' class and was very impressed. I bought the equipment and started a small CO testing company. I've limited myself to testing family friends & neighbors for practice. Any work that needs to be done I refer out to someone in the area who has attended Jim's class. At this point I'm hoping that my pension and this business will be enough to provide for my family, I have 3 young kids. I started HVAC School to gain experience, understand systems and help the customer with problems not CO related. I thought School would be the best way to do this.
Any input will be appreciated

Thanks John

Unknown

John, you got some real

advanced training from Jim Davis and I am sure after spending weeks with him you do not need much training at all. Jim pretty much covers every thing from systems to troubleshooting. Any school after that must seem really poor.

I have done a lot of teaching to young eager to learn techs in my life and even a few old ones who did not think they had any thing to learn. I have a simple rule in my classes, you disrupt the class you are out the door. I have done it that way for many years, never seem to have a problem. An instructor has to command a presence when he or she walks into a classroom. It has to be very real to everyone who is in charge.

John if you still want to learn something I can offer you a trip to RI for seven of my seminars and you will find it will help you with what you are looking for. I wish you had attended my classes before Jim Davis class. He is advanced in many ways and I tend to be more basic. Any way the offer is open give me a call at 401-437-0557.

LEAD PIPE

Thanks, I would like to attend your class, I wasn't sure if it was to advanced for me, I don't know to much about the electronics end and was hoping for a very basic starting point. My other issue is the Oil aspect. I grew up with gas and know NOTHING about oil. I really need help in this area. I have been reading a book called Fire dragons, or something like that, it’s in my locker at work. It is a great book but its tough not being to able to ask questions. Another question; is what if I want to get more into this business, get licensed? Don't I need the HVAC classes? It would be good to get that done while I'm still working

Unknown

John we start with

Basic Fundamentals of Gas the first day. Day two is Basic Circuitry and Troubleshooting. We then do a day on Hydronic Controls those three classes would be a good start for you.

The book you have on oil comes from my good friend George Lanthier who posts here and also at www.oiltechtalk.com. George can really help you with the oil side. You can contact him at his web site www.firedragonent.com.

LEAD PIPE

Thanks, what about the license issue. I will need HVAC school if I want to get a license someday right or is it about working so many hours then taking a test?

Weezbo

Hmmm....

not exactly,....each state ,each county,bourrough ,muni has a guide line for requirements to function as a business in their locality. The classes you have taken are S.O.P. with us every year to "keep abrest of the times"...our reading lists and studies would bury some people ,having said that, caution is in order when providing certain services in the community and there are aspects such as licensing inurance and bonding that are also associated with our lines of endeavour. While there are certain aspects that are on the cutting edge as it were taking a quick course in flying rocketships to mars wouldnt satisfy my sence of security with you" at the wheel" as it were. I am not saying this to dissuade you in any way..it would be perhaps easier to let your enthusiasm function under the watchful eyes of someone with a shade more experience First. Police work may have a few vagarities that many of us would be hard pressed to solve at the drop of a hat...in police speak a rookie is a rookie no matter how smart a cookie.good intentions alone can pave the way to hell ina hurry. The same is true in our field of work. we deal with certain monkeys that have to be controlled,;electricty,fire, water,gasses and creative sobs with a wrench. Well, lets hear some second opinions...maybe where you live none of what i have said is valid or applicable.

LEAD PIPE

I want to do right. That’s why I'm here. If you’re worried about my testing for CO so early on I can understand your concern but let me share something with you. When I tested my Dads gas boiler I found that it was dirty and there was a gas leak coming from a union and the gas valve. (I test for gas leaks also) I told him to call the gas co. They came out cleaned his boiler replaced the valve and fixed the union. I went there to re-test the NEXT day and the CO was over 9000ppm (I pulled out my probe because I didn't want it to lock out.) When I left it 2 days prior the CO was at 40ppm. They had this boiler so over fired it was ridiculous. The CO is now in the 40's again. This is just 1 example. I've had 3 more "bad" experiences with the gas co, the one at my Dads being the worst, mainly because my kids sleep there!
Believe me I want to do things right and learn as much as possible. Don't take this as arrogance but as far as testing for CO is concerned I feel that I am ahead of the game. I don't need a license here for the work that I'm doing (had my attorney check with consumer protection before I started) Insurance has been difficult; none of them want to touch anything that has to do with CO.

Unknown

Check with your State

for liscensing requirements. I am in the process of getting my training classes and seminars accepted for hours applied to educational requirements for liscensing in Mass, CT and New Hampshire. We are already approved for the State of RI. Many times other states will recognize training received elsewhere.

You need to find out what educational hours are required and also work hours. Typically you must be working under a liscensed Master in order for your work hours to count.

Education needs to be a no nonsense approach to subject matter and at the same time fun. I try to do both as I have fun doing what I do. I love to teach others and many times my reward is seeing the sucess of my students. I am often critized by some for doing a one man class on a subject. They tell me that you can not make any money doing that. They are probably right, however I feel that one student educated is advertisement for what I do. So I do one man classes.

I would like to fill auditoriums with people as Dan and others are able to do. It seems that the subject of gas service is not a popular item to many. There is much to learn now days in order to stay current. I realize that the installation side of this business is what brings in the money, but someone has to service the stuff after it is installed. I try to give a broad coverage that encompasses both sides.

LEAD PIPE

I called consumer protection and they said 575 school hours and 3000 hours working as an apprentice in order to apply for a license.
I just called and withdrew from the HVAC class; I can’t see spending 18K for something I’m not sure about.
Tim, I will be in touch. Does anyone know where I can take some classes in Oil burners, NY, CT, MA, RI area?

Thanks to all for all your help

John

Unknown

Try here....

http://www.firedragonent.com/

RB_2

some thoughts

Tim asked me to post my views on this stuff so here it is...hopefully its not to cerebral...


....I know a lot more millionaire tradesmen than I do millionaire surgeons…which I love to point out when socializing with academia…but the reality is most folks can’t see themselves either as a brain surgeon or a craftsman but they believe if they had to pick a career path where failure was not an option…they would pick the trades.

Why?

Because the value society places on higher education is in proportion to the investment of time and talents (cash) of getting that education…so the question which establishes perceived value is not what do us tradesmen think we are worth but … “what would John and Jane Q Public be personally willing to sacrifice to earn the right to operate with a saw on your head vs using a saw to install your head..?"

It is this mental gymnastics which rationalizes their belief (which they are entitled to) that the most experienced craftsman is not worth the same amount of respect or wages as the least experienced brain surgeon…regardless of capabilities…not because of what tradesman ‘are’ but because of what ‘they’ think they are - based on what they personally would sacrifice - given a choice between surgeon or contractor.

One solution…and one very hard solution to grasp…is if we want to change the perception of the trades...raise the cost of educating the trades…(and the naysayers said all together now – “YA RIGHT”, as if that idea will fly…blah blah blah )…so let me put this another way…

Porsche (Masserati or Audi for that matter) have made some very crappy automobiles in their time…but owners of one of the lemons…never says he owns a crappy Porsche…she/he just has to mention the P word and everybody goes ooohhhh ahhhhh...and visions of sugar plumbs dance in their heads…but not sugar plumbers…they think doctor, lawyer, accountant, software engineer, athlete, lotto winner etc…(when is a Volkswagen not a Beetle…when it costs 10 time more!)

Another example …when I ask everyone in a seminar to name the most respected and well known brand of pipe, boiler, controls, air separator, circulators etc…the brands of choice have one thing in common – higher prices.

High price has a perception of everything good…quality, convenience, durability, reliability, etc…Ask a room full of consumers what does it cost to get a medical, law, commerce degree and everybody says “lots” – lots of money and lots of time…then ask them what the education is worth and they say lots…ask them what it costs to become a tradesmen…well the answers just make my blood boil…

…so we all know intellectually (in our minds) the value vs. cost principal because we live it everyday but for some reason we go into denial when we shift the principal to education…big big mistake!

Want to change the perception upwards (positive)?…raise the cost to get a trades ticket.

Want to make it even more valuable?...redefine the name “heating contractor” to something of value…heating is what you do…what they client gets is something else…are ya with me on this?…this is very important stuff! …as I have said before…its not (never has been) about thinking outside the box…its about creating new boxes!!

Then place tougher restriction on becoming the deliverer of the ‘new definition’...think HDTV as an example.

My opinion – value perception (vs. reality value) comes from what it personally cost you...time and talents...

Unknown

Thanks Robert,

as of tomorrow all my seminars will be $10,000 dollars!!!!

Then everyone can say Hey I attended the Gas Training Institute and now have a degree in Boiler Surgery.

By the way I fully agree with your analogy. If it does not have worth it is worth nothing. We need to quit putting ourselves down. Some of the gas guys around this way have started a company called the "GAS Doctor" I think they are on to something. They call me by the way the GAS Professor.

Glenn Harrison_2

Also check here regularly...

http://server.com/WebApps/calendar-add.cgi?id=50921

The Oil Tech Talk .com seminar schedule.

tate

CT classes

I know what you mean about Porter & Chester, I recently relocated to New Hampshire, but I had a few apprentices want-to-be's come to me from there. Most were as you described. any how, it is noble of you to go that route.
CT licensing is going to be a long haul.

For oil experience you may want to contact ICPA, Independent CT Petroleum Association. Their school is top notch and very hands on. You may be able to do some auditing just to observe. I believe their website is ICPA.ORG. If you make contact, tell them Greg says hello. I used to sit on their education advisory board.

Good Luck

Unknown

Hey Greg, I have been waiting

to hear from you. Give me a call at 401-437-0557. I am getting ready to do a Electric Ignition Seminar in Portsmouth on Sept. 16.

LEAD PIPE

Hey thanks, It looks good

LEAD PIPE

tate, can you e-mail me your e-mail i have a couple questions about the school thanks leadpipe@snet.net

RB_2

Gas Professor

ah the Professor of Gas...Igniting the way to higher learning...