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Zurn PEX
Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes
Member Posts: 1,243
Does anyone know what kind of PEX this is? PEX A, B or C?
I want to use the Rehau method of expanding the tubing and using a Rehau barbed fitting with collar for my connections, but I can only use that on PEX A tubing.
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I want to use the Rehau method of expanding the tubing and using a Rehau barbed fitting with collar for my connections, but I can only use that on PEX A tubing.
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Comments
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Zurn Pex
> Does anyone know what kind of PEX this is? PEX A,
> B or C?
>
> I want to use the Rehau method of
> expanding the tubing and using a Rehau barbed
> fitting with collar for my connections, but I can
> only use that on PEX A tubing.
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 53&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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Zurn Pex
Alan,
Zurn Pex is produced using the Silane bridge method of cross-linking. This would be Pex-B if we accepted the european designations for manufacturing in the States.
I won't insult you and ask why you would want to use the Rehau fitting system. Please be aware that the Zurn PEX system has a 25 year warranty including the fittings/connections. The Zurn system warranty also covers repairs to the real property in the event of a problem. This would include drywall repair, painting, new carpets, etc.
The Rehau fitting system should hold fine and should not pose a problem, but Zurn can not warranty someone elses fittings because we do not have design or manufacturing control of the Rehau fittings.
Please feel free to email me directly if I can be of any additional help.
Best regards,
Bill Verdecchia0 -
Zurn PEX
Thanks, Bill. We picked up a job where the owner got fed up with the installer and threw him off. He asked us to come in and finish up.
Zurn PEX was used and my guys are all set up to work with Rehau Everlok fittings, but I don't want them to since these Everloc fittings are designed for PEX A. Besides, I don't want to burden the homeowner with anything other than a full Zurn warranty. We'll use the Zurn transition fittings.
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Pex fitting formats
Have you ever looked at Stadlers press fitting line? After going through many other types from different manufacturers this is the one I've settled on.
Advantages:
You can use Viega's pex fittings or any other crimp ring type from whatever mfgr. with their pex sleeve. (Viega people will flip when they see that but it's true in my experience)
The same fitting works on Viega's pex and PAP. Same tool does both types of tube.
The press sleeve completely encloses (encircles?) the open end of the pex. This eliminates the possibility that the pex will squish out from under the crimp ring over time. Seen this happen.
Their system is pretty much idiot proof. If you can see the pex through the inspection hole it will be a good connection everytime.
Out of literally miles of tubing, I have never had so much as a drip from a press fitting. Can't say the same for methods I've tried. We use the PAP on just about all our residential near boiler piping all the way up to 10 gpm flow.
If you don't have anyone who sells it near you let me know. I'll send you a full line catalog from the distribution side of things here.
Steve0 -
Correct if I'm wrong...
..but isn't the Silane method a Pex-C and the radiation method a type B?0 -
My notes......
PEX A - Engel method: a hot process that takes place during the extrusion process; cross-linking occurs in the carbon atoms (Rehau, Wirsbo, Mr. PEX, Heatlink)
PEX B - Silane method; a cold process; a special pre-mixed polyethylene based resin is extruded into HDPEtubing. In a second process , the tubing is placed in a sauna to complete the cross-linking process with heat and moisture. This process also produces a less consistent level of cross-linking, with more complicated bonds across the tubing's molecular chain; cross-linking occurs across silicone and oxygen molecules, i.e. weaker (Infloor, Thermalease, Heatway, Zurn)
PEX C - Irradiation method; a cold process; cross-linking occurs in the carbon atoms (Roth, Stadler-Viega, HeatLink)
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> PEX A - Engel method: a hot process that takes
> place during the extrusion process; cross-linking
> occurs in the carbon atoms (Rehau, Wirsbo, Mr.
> PEX, Heatlink)
>
> PEX B - Silane method; a cold
> process; a special pre-mixed polyethylene based
> resin is extruded into HDPEtubing. In a second
> process , the tubing is placed in a sauna to
> complete the cross-linking process with heat and
> moisture. This process also produces a less
> consistent level of cross-linking, with more
> complicated bonds across the tubing's molecular
> chain; cross-linking occurs across silicone and
> oxygen molecules, i.e. weaker (Infloor,
> Thermalease, Heatway, Zurn)
>
> PEX C -
> Irradiation method; a cold process; cross-linking
> occurs in the carbon atoms (Roth, Stadler-Viega,
> HeatLink)
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 53&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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Do You Homework Before You Post Here
Mr. Alan Forbes.
It is obvious that your information on pex was obtained through a PEX -A manufacturers sales training. You have no facts to back up your hidden statements. Yes, Silane PEX is made with a silane bridge using up approximately 3.5 functionality sites per Silane-Carbon Bond. And yes it is then placed in a high temperature environment to complete the process.
Your information is not completely accurate about Pex-B. The implied statements about PEX -B being "...Weaker" or "inconsistant" is not correct.
Look up some PEX-A manufacturer's articles written 10 years ago and compare them to today! You will notice that they no longer speek of PEX-A as the best.
All pex tubing is of a high quality and can be installed without problems. Please don't use a public forum to post inaccurete notes. I have degrees in mechanical and plastic engineering and I assure you that a lot of the published information on PEX is not accurate.
PEX-B is extreemly uniform and has more available free space. This molecular free space is filled with addition stabilizers that increase the resistance to environmental attack. In addition to stabilizers other contaminates like color concentrates are added to increase the aesthetic properties. PEX A & C can not maintain similar stabilizer levels without interfering with the cross-linking process.
PEX-B made by Zurn Industries has been tested by Jana Laboratories and other independent test labs. The results of this testing is that Zurn Pex (Silane Pex-B) has the highest tensile strength, highest burst strength, highest resistance to thermal degredation, excellent resistance to chemical and UV attack and YES- it even has the longest expected life. This information is indisputable and has been published by independent sources.
I hate having to respond to these types of posts. All pex tubing meets the ASTM requirements for use. No pex tubing should be trashed publicly. I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your statements were not meant to pass judgement on PEX-B. You need to do your homework before you speak publicly about these things. In today's litigious society, it can be very costly!!
Bill Verdecchia - Manager Training & Development (Zurn Industries)0 -
Bill
Easy, Bill. Alan Forbes has been posting on the Wall for many years and I have never known him to trash anyone's product or work. I will let Alan speak for himself but I think you are reading way too much into his post. Threatening a lawsuit was certainly uncalled for. JMHO -DF
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Agreed.
Retired and loving it.0 -
Dan,
I respect what you do and do not wish to make waves here. There was not threat of a lawsuit, just a statement. I have been reading posts from the wall for some time now. I think that the wall is a good place and can help people.
Unfortunately, I have talked with many people that have made judgements about our product from publications or reading info on this forum. They believe everything as fact even if it is not. We all have a responsibility to be accurate.
Bill0 -
Article on PEX - Most know this information
I agree with Dan and Dan as well. Here is an article I wrote a few years back to help out with these questions. When I wrote this article, multi-layer pipes were just coming on the scene - but they are just as certified/qualified as PEX in today's market along with their fitting systems.
The article:
What's the Right Pipe Choice for Radiant Heating?
A radiant floor heating system works by circulating warm water through piping either encased in a slab floor or attached up under a sub-floor. The piping is arranged in a back-and-forth pattern to turn the whole floor into a giant emitter of radiant heat, the type of warmth that has become very popular.
Your choice of radiant pipe is critical, since a radiant floor must last the life of the structure. This choice literally makes or breaks the home's comfort system.
A radiant floor works by warming objects directly by radiant heat waves. As a result, the air isn't dried out and blown around, which minimizes dust and drafts and makes it easier for you to breathe. A radiant floor also saves energy. A typical surface temperature for a tiled slab floor can be as low as 85oF created by 115oF supply fluid, with higher supply water temperatures required by carpeted floors.
For most interior floors, pipe diameters of 1/2 inch are used; 3/4-inch or 1-inch diameters can be used for branch piping to zones.
Many choices, many concerns
How can you know what type radiant heating pipe will provide trouble-free performance over the structure's entire lifetime? A pipe that meets the requirements of a national standard and has been certified to meet that standard by an independent agency is a good starting point. The most certified pipe type for heating in North America is PEX, even over metal pipes.
Decades ago, copper and steel were used as radiant floor piping. While providing excellent, long-term performance for general hydronic purposes, these materials were unsuitable as radiant floor heating pipe. Poor water quality, pipes not properly installed and the quality of the concrete caused these materials to leak. PEX pipes, when installed properly, are immune to these types of problems.
With the re-introduction of radiant floor heating, various rubber and plastic products were tried to overcome the shortcomings of copper. While available in long, flexible seamless lengths, these early products couldn't be counted on to handle three critical performance issues: long term life expectancies, toughness required during installation and minimal oxygen diffusion.
With the introduction of PEX to North America, several standards were developed to insure that all products bearing the PEX designation would be required to have minimum performance standards. ASTM F876 was developed and accepted as the standard for the manufacturing and testing of PEX pipe. DIN 4726 provides the guidelines for protection of ferrous components in a heating system from damage caused by the introduction of oxygen.
So do I believe what the manufacturers tell me about their pipe?
ASTM F876 details the basic attributes and performance requirements for PEX pipe that must be adhered to for a pipe to qualify as being properly produced:
1. Sustained pressure 2. Burst pressure 3. Environmental stress cracking resistance 4. Stabilizer migration 5. Degree of cross-linking
ASTM F876 also explains the types of cross-linking and their methods of measurement. Three principal PEX manufacturing processes exist for production of cross-linked polyethylene (PEX). Each PEX production method has a degree of cross-linking that shall be within the range from 65% to 89% inclusive according to paragraph 6.7 of ASTM F876.
The same ASTM F876 paragraph specifies the minimum degree of cross-linking for each production method as:
1. Peroxide (PEXa) - 70% 2. Moisture-cured vinyl-silane (PEXb) - 65% 3. Beta irradiation (PEXc) - 65%
It is very import to understand the percentages when comparing production methods for PEX. A higher cross-linking percentage (for example 82%) for one PEX pipe production method or brand does not mean that it will result in a PEX pipe that is superior in performance to a PEX pipe production method or brand that has a lower cross-linking percentage (for example 65%).
One of the most important attributes of PEX pipe is the selection and amount of stabilizer and performance additives that are incorporated into the compound that contribute to either the long-term performance of the pipe or the cross-linking process. The additives and degree of cross-linking have an impact on the characteristics of the pipe. The greater the cross-linking percentage, the greater the hoop stress. The greater the cross-linking percentage, the stiffer (less flexible) the pipe. Additives, especially stabilizer migration additives, are most important for long pipe life. Selecting the wrong additives has been the demise of several manufacturers of other types of radiant floor heating pipe/hose, as told by recent news stories related to failures in the field. The goal of the pipe manufacturer is to produce a PEX pipe, which is flexible, easy to bend and also has a hoop stress that meets the pressure requirements, and ratings required by the ASTM F876 standards. All these properties for the pipe have been carefully determined by the formulation of the compound "recipe" and this "recipe" must be maintained by the manufacturer of the pipe to provide a consistent product. Some of these "recipes" have been developed under continual development and qualification over the past 25+ years. The pipe manufacturer doing its own due diligence with its own quality control laboratory and procedures and working with an independent certification agency and/or agencies assures all of this. The independent certification agencies will provide independent testing in accordance with ASTM F876 and perform quality control audits and random production sample testing two to four times a year.
How does one know that a pipe material will stand the test of time?
The Plastic Pipe Institute (PPI) lists PEX pipes when they have determined that they meet their criteria for long term service. The PPI has a listing of pipes by manufacturer and trade name that have been reviewed by their Hydrostatic Stress Board (HSB). This board is comprised of experts from all areas of the plastic pipe industry, which includes PE (polyethylene) natural gas pipe producers. These PE plastic pipes are installed throughout our neighborhoods, supplying natural gas to our homes. PE for natural gas pipes does not require cross-linking because the temperature requirements for natural gas pipes are less than 140oF; the standard temperature limit for pipes made from PE.
The NSF, prior to allowing their NSF mark on a plastic pipe, must verify that the pipe received listing by PPI's HSB. The PPI publishes a report called TR-4 which lists thermoplastic piping materials with a PPI recommended hydrostatic design basis (HDB) category and a maximum recommended hydrostatic design stress (HDS) for water.
Is oxygen diffusion really that big of an issue (problem)?
Meeting the DIN 4726 standard is a requirement of any responsible heating system supplier. The pipe can be sheathed with an oxygen impermeable coating, or the part of the heating system, which will allow oxygen to be introduced, can be isolated by a heat exchanger from the ferrous components. Oxygen inhibitors (chemical scavengers) added to the boiler water or complete non-ferrous heating systems, are also allowed by DIN 4726.
Obviously, ferrous heating-system components will corrode in the presence of oxygen. Many boiler and pump manufacturers know that on-going oxygen infiltration will damage ferrous materials and eventually cause system failure, much like systems exposed to continuous make-up water, leaks, and misplaced air vents.
When the system is first filled, the water contains oxygen. But this oxygen quickly combines with iron to form iron oxide--rust. In a closed system, once all the free oxygen is used, the corrosion process stops.
But with non-metallic piping, oxygen may enter a back door. Oxygen ions in the water will attract other oxygen ions outside the system. These outside ions can be pulled through non-metallic pipe, forming complete oxygen molecules ready to combine with iron to produce more rust. To prevent eventual damage to cast iron heat exchangers, pumps, and other ferrous components, oxygen diffusion must be prevented by selecting pipe with an oxygen barrier and/or provide a means (heat exchanger) to isolate (protect) the components of the heating plant which can be damaged from oxygen.
In fact, since PEX piping has been used for years in Europe for radiant heating, the German DIN standard (DIN 4726) has allowed the continued use of PEX plastic piping. The standard limits oxygen permeation to .1mg/liter/day. PEX piping is also available without the oxygen barrier for installations using secondary heat exchangers or non-ferrous components.
Easy choice that's easy to use
In the end, making the right radiant piping choice is easy, thanks to products that meet industry standards, which are qualified by independent testing and quality control audits and have long-term experience. With its DIN and ASTM requirements, plus a 25+-year record of success in Europe, PEX piping is the right pipe for today's radiant floor heating and distribution piping opportunities. It alleviates concerns over oxygen damage and long term life expectancy. By these critical measures, PEX is the proven and most conservative choice for North American contractors who want to profit from the booming radiant-floor business.
Learn more information:
ASTM - www.astm.org
PPI - www.plasticpipe.org
NSF- www.nsf.org
For information or questions about radiant products or companies see:
RPA - www.rpa-info.com0 -
Not what you said, Bill.
It's how you said it.Retired and loving it.0 -
Not what you said, Bill.
It's how you said it. People also make judgements based on how others treat them. Thanks for understanding.Retired and loving it.0 -
My intentions were not to be nasty. As an engineer, I am just frustrated with how much false information is circulated as fact. Then it get's published and becomes a bible. There just seems to be more salesmenship than true help in our industry. Everyone seems to be attacking each other and putting thier spin on things fighting for one or two customers.
I appologize if my post seemed to aggressive for this forum. Zurn is one of the only companys not participating in the negative sales programs; and you are right that I didn't represent the company well. I will refrain from posting in the future.0 -
Not wrong,
just a bit nasty. It doesn't represent Zurn well.Retired and loving it.0 -
Didn't mean
to create such a stir; sorry Bill, that data has been on my computer for awhile now and maybe I need to edit it.
The information came from one of the I=B=R schools I attended in Washington about 15 years ago.
Alan Forbes
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Alan,
You don't owe an appology. I do. I just get frustrated with how this business works some times. I took that frustration out on you, Sorry.
Bill0 -
Written
like a true Gentleman, Alan.
You'd be welcome from the left coast to the East anytime.0 -
Agreed.
And it applies to both guys. Thanks.Retired and loving it.0 -
Bill, I think the
worst thing you can do is "refrain from posting in the future".
Your issues with incorrect technical information came thru along with the frustrations typical of any industry that has engineering differences. It is the my wrench is bigger than your wrench thing.
That being said, not posting on the board is exactly what we do not want. If you give up posting, you also give up the opportunities to provide technical info on your products and their use. You also give up your firm belief in your products and your quest to bring industry perceptions into today's perspective and out of the urban myth arena.
So don't pack up your marbles and go home. No one will hold saying "Sorry guys" against you. It is like kitchens and boiler rooms, it can sometimes be hot. A spritz of cool makes it all better.0 -
)
Hey! you are starting to do pex education classes:) a Guys got to read two three sources of information examine its sourece and make an informed decision...all in all we are committed to doing our level best to make our work last the test of time and produce a quality product.All of us look to the future while living in the here and now. As pex is a product that has a host of utilizations in our world the Plumbing manufacturers see the market applications and go about meeting the expected market. I dont make my own pex in my back yard so i study and read and reasearch what is going forward in the world... pex is going forward...Dissing the other guy doesnt get things done,if you have something to contribute then doit!
....I think there are quite a few dollars going into R/&D in the field of pex due to so many uses and benifits it has to contribute to our lives in the future....hold on a min. What if we all gave up on transistors ? maybe we wouldnt be having this conversation. What if we dont use our God given abilities and let every one else do our thinking for us? what if we dissuade some manufacturer and they would have turned out something that the medical industry hit on and enhanced all our lives ? Theres a lot of what if,s lets note there are differences and make our own informed decisions.0 -
I know that our sales
of Zurn Radiant Products is increasing every year(doubled last year). Plumbing and heating systems are comprehensive, quality products. And the Quick Zone Modular manifold is gaining in popularity, Commercially and Residentially. I used to believe that Pex-A was the only pipe to use, because I used to sell Rehau. Perspective is a beautiful thing. I also sell Kitec. But each has their place. Both Excellent products and systems.
I think Alan is guilty of what most contractors are guilty of: settling into a "comfort" zone based on initially embedded foundation information. After all; busy, successful Contractors have their priorities to maintain.
Thank you, Gary, for posting that Essay, I hadn't seen it.
Bill, I would absolutely encourage you to not decline further contribution.
Regards,
Jed0 -
Aww bill
don't let one moment of frustation stop you from sharing your knowledge with us. I myself have had a few remorseful ways of putting things on this forum. Yet I have always been welcomed back.
Here's my take. Here in Vancouver we have some tubing manufacturers. They all Produce B-type. This is 99% of what I have installed for well over 10 years now. I have been very pleased with the results. What I like about the B-type, especially in laying floor loops, is that it is "softer" then the A-type, and I find that it "sits" better.
Leo G
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Say, Bill
It seems you have access to information withheld from us lowly contractors. I would love to know the test results of the various pex products and have tried to get them from several manufacturers. So far without luck: Everybody seems to market on hype; not facts. Is Zurn different? Are you willing to share that information? Sure would be nice.
Bill0 -
Bill,
It's very important for everyone to know that all PEX tubing is good and suitable for use. In general, PEX is superior to alternate materials like Copper and CPVC. Zurn manufactures PEX tubing with some additional performance additives to exceed the current standards. Any manufacturer making PEX to the ASTM standards will outperform alternate materials and provide safe drinking water for our families. It's important that I make this statement, because I don't want to make the same misleading statements that other people have made over the years. Zurn does not actively market any products by using negative scare tactics. That being said, we have published the attached document for defense against all of the harmful information that has circulated over the years. One should only use the document as information to broaden ones perspective.
I hope this helps,
Bill0 -
Europeans
Our friends across the big pond don't use silane pex for plumbing supposedly due to stuff leaching into the water. Only engle method and e-beam pex are used over there. Silane pex is used for heating only.
Ted0 -
To All That Posted Here
I have been involved with PEX Tubing now for over 13 years. I have used each method of Tubing and while each has it's own fitting system the tubing itself will outlast each one of us. I think we all get to caught up in looking for the best. What is the best? Personally, I feel the best is, "a quality product at a competative price along with first rate manufacturer representation. Each PEX Manufacture has it's plus's and it's down's. We all tend to try and make rocket science out something that is so simple. Cross-linked Poly is Cross-linked poly and I don't care by what method it's made. They all have to meet the same ASTM standards abd they all pass. Knowning Bill, I understand his frustration. Too many people think they have all the anwsers when truthfully they don't have all the information. Bill is correct when he states that Zurn Pex is the strongest pex based on tensil and yeild. It' a sales tool. It doesn't mean that his Pex is better than Wirsbo's, Stadlers, RTI's, Vanguards and on and on or vise versu. It means it's stronger under the conditions tested. As far as I know, but I may be wrong, I don't think any of the appplications that we use PEX in comes close to the pressures that PEX is tested to. Let's stop focusing on who is better than who and focus on educating the public on the benefits of PEX in general and the benefits you feel puts you ahead of your competition. I've used them all (PEX Manufactures) and have had good success with them all. In closing I would like to say that Bill is a standup guy and those of you that haven't made up to ERIE, PA to his class should try and get up there cause he does one hell of a job.
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What it like most about the Zurn system
is the thin splice whose CV loss is only equal to 6ft of pex (not a whole lot in the pex world) and is not only is great for repairs, but you can also use it up front and not have to start a new roll for every run according to all sorts of tests done by Zurn and others the pex always failed before the splice/fitting as long as you use their splice tool and gauge, I am still chicken though, to do it in a poured floor, but in Radiant Sub-floor (which I do most) its great you simply take a splice and to short pieces of pex and make up a dummy splice, then fill it with Jbweld, now wherever a splice comes out on the aluminized sub floor, you first bang the dummy splice into the floor first, remove it, then the real splice goes in naaaahiiceneassssahhh0 -
Sorry Ted But Your Statement is not Correct
Canada & Europe use silane and e-beam pex a lot. Zurn sells Silane PEX in Canada and Europe; and Uponor (The company that owns Wirsbo) has a division in Canada, Plasco Manufacturing LTD., that produces Silane Pex for use in Canada and other markets as well. In Europe silane PEX is produced & sold by many companies including Giacomini, an Italian Manufacturer, that has revolutionized plumbing and heating in Europe. It is true that many areas of Europe still use Polybutylene for plumbing. We might to if our municipalities didn't put so many chemicals in our water (Chlorine & Ammonia - Chloramines, Floride, etc.) Rumors like this are what keep's some plumbing inspectors from approving pex in general. We as a team need to end these statements and move forward. We think they help our cause, but the statements are counter productive
Silane, Engle, & E-Beam Pex are all high quality NON-TOXIC materials.
Bill Verdecchia.0 -
Pex is great but
Don't forget PAP type products. They have one HUGE advantage over any pex. They don't grow! The rate of expansion is less than 1/10th of regular pex. No noise problems, you don't have to leave expansion loops on longer runs and it stays where you put it.
Just food for thought.............0 -
fixing kink
Bill,
I know with PexA and PexC that you can successfully repair a kink using a heat gun without any measurable harm to hte pipe.
Is this so with pexB?
Thanks,
Steve0 -
Steve,
The real issue is would you want to?!
An excessive amount of heat must be used to heat any type of PEX tubing up to a temp that will allow it to re-flow into it's pre-stressed shape (Non-Kink). No matter if you use a hair dryer or more practically for plumbers a torch, this excessive heat places a "heat history" on the pipe. This localized heat history is severe and uses up a significant amount of the stabilizer package that is needed for the products longevity. In laymen's terms....heating out a kink in any pex can significantly shorten the product's life in that area.
Now to directly answer your question; yes you can heat up Engle, Silane, and E-beam Pex tubing to remove a kink. In some cases the kink may fracture the tubing (Usually when it is cold out) if the kink shows a fracture, it should not be heated out no mater what PEX it is.
Even though pex can be heated to remove a kink, you shouldn't because of the loss of thermal stabalizers. In general, we wouldn't want a plumbing system that has been repaired this way. We recommend that the kink is cut out and repaired with a coupling. The pressure drop through the fitting only equates to a couple feet of pipe and we are assured that the repair does not lower the integrity of the system. Not to mention the repair with a coupling takes a few seconds compared to approximately 10 minutes to heat out the kink.
Bill Verdecchia0 -
why would I?
Bill,
Scenerio, I'm putting tube in a concrete floor for RFH, I'm on my last run with my last 250ft piece of tube, I kink the tube 200 feet out. I WILL NOT put a COUPLING of any sort in my in-slab installations.
All major manufactures of pexA and pexC spout that their pex can be repaired by heating until the tube is clear and alolowing it to cool back to ambient temperature. It's in all of their "training semnars." During this they all say that you can not do this and successfully repair a "bridged" pex.
This is a huge issue in the RFH industry. (and a big selling feature from A&C mans)Can you shed more light on the subject?
Thanks,
Steve0 -
Steve,
I was a contractor while I was going to school. I knew WHY you would want to heat the PEX. With my question, I meant.... knowing that it will cause degradation, would anyone really want to? Convenience drives most of us. It is convenient for people to heat up the PEX and out comes the kink. The problem is that it damages the tubing. I know that this is not a good comparison, but ........I have seen old literature from manufacturers of Asbestos that said it was safe and easy to use. It showed workers in factories packing furnaces without any safety equipment. Manufacturers don't always know everything, and like asbestos, some are afraid to step forward with change.
In concrete, a heated pex repair is not as critical because the concrete absorbs some of the hoop stress from the internal pressure and thermal expansion. In a staple up or other not embedded installation, the pex tubing has to bare the load. The additional heat history can reduce the properties that we count on. I would be interested to see the test data from a manufacturer that shows a kink repair that underwent the industries hydrostatic tests that evaluate the expected life. I won't lie, Zurn has not done this test because we don't recommend the practice, but I would hypothesize a considerable life drop.
I have never been one to regurgitate what is popular and pass it on as my own. I know that some of the things I say are not the norm, but I can back them up with data, scholastic achievement and experience. I can also say that I have witnessed testing and Zurn's silane pex has better resistance to temperature than the current Engle pex. This was confirmed in JANA LABORATORIES INC. PROJECT NUMBER: 00-3004. Even having this information and knowing our pex will kink repair with heat, I still would rather see a properly prepared coupling repair in a slab or suspended application. I know this is not popular, but until I see confirming hydrostatic tests, I must be responsible and recommend against kink repairing with heat.
Bill Verdecchia0 -
test
Test
Test0 -
I read your post and a lot of this information has been helpful. Although controversy is difficult, everyones comments have been helpful.
Thanks for the help.
Just Learning0 -
Just Wondering
I do think these posts are interesting, I wish there were more forums like this.
Interested0 -
Still.....
Bill,
I can not for the life of me begin to doubt that when a major tube manufacture says that fixing a kink in their tube will not harm it and the tube is as strong as original. I assume they have done the testing. It is their recommended practice.
This accounts for almost every PexA and C manufacture. I will have to persue them for testing data... I guess.
But as far as your concenrened you would not repair a PexB kink with heat. Correct? or are you saying All TYPES of PEX.
Don't get me wrong. I am NOT trying to trap you. I am aware that there have been MAJOR advances in PexB over the years and it has gained much more acceptability in the market place. I have been a died in the wool A&C user/supplier and only know what I see in the books and hear from their tubing engineers/designers/scientists.
BTW - thanks for the honost answers :-)
Steve0
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