Favorite Methods of Securing Pex?

Jim Erhardt

The thread discussing the spacing of pipe track prompted me to post this question - what is your preferred method of securing Pex in a wet application?

IMO, there are a few things to consider. First, any method or product used has a very limited and specific purpose - to hold the tubing in place until the slab (concrete, gypcrete, etc.) is poured. After that, it really makes no difference what was used. Second, any method or product needs to be cost-effective and easy to use. IMO, as long as the method/product does the job of properly holding the tubing in place while the slab is poured, it doesn't make sense to go overboard on this.

For me, good 'ole cheapy 6-inch nylon cable ties were my preferred method for securing Pex to rebar or mesh in slab aps. I would not pull the ties tight - I would leave them a little loose so the tube would have the opportunity to float up and away from the mesh. This method was (for me at least) easy and cost-effective.

For thin slabs on top of plywood, I always used the plastic "J-clips" - clips with the single nail on one side. This always worked well for me. The pipe track is more expensive to use, though it probably does save some time overall. However, if I was told that the gypcrete guys want the pipe track installed 16" O.C., the cost of material (and the time required to install that much of it) would IMO make it impractical.

So what are *your* preferred methods?

J.C.A._3

Check ,out

Sioux Chief. We did a rather large job attached to mesh,and they make clips that "push and turn" to click to the mesh.

About the fastest I've seen yet,and they allowed the pour guys to "float" the whole screen/mesh to the desired depth.
(sorry for the Hamfisted typing,I'm back to the laptop for a stretch) Chris

hr

Depending on the size

of the job. For plywood staple down nothing beats the Senco PW stapler for speed and cost. Small jobs I use the Sioux Chief Tube Talons. Maybe 600 square feet or less.

As for slabs on rebar of remesh I use those bar ties with the loop ends. Skip that spinner tool, however. It's slow and guys tend to over tighten with it. I just use my fingers and put a single twist on it. Much like you would tie a bread bag.

Much cheaper and faster than zip ties, and no ends to deal with. I buy 7" bar ties in rolls of 5000.

Regular tie wire in a dispensor on you belt is fast and quick if you have ever watched a pro use one. Guys that tie rebar for bridges or swimming pools are incrediably fast with coiled wire!

Now for large jobs nothing compares to the Watts Clip Tie tool. Very fast and no bending over.

Since I have switched to PAP tube, tie down has gotten much easier. Fewer ties required and less fighting at the loop ends. Both for slab on grade and plywood staple down.

PAP needs to be in every manufactures offering, in my opinion

hot rod

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Jim Erhardt

PAP

Never used the stuff. Envisoned working with it as not much different that a coil of soft copper. As a plumber for over 25 years, I know what that's like!

Since PAP is (as far as I can see) all but useless for staple-up, it would be hard to convince most manufacturers to have both in their lines (inventory space, SKUs, support literature, etc.), especially considering Pex does it all quite well.

hr

Ahh, but Doc

You answered the question with your first line "Never used the stuff"

You really need to try it before you judge.

I do all my transfer plate radiant, as well as slabs, with PAP.

It brings a lot of pluses, less expansion and contraction, and related noise. Easier to form and make nice looking manifolds. Protected O2 barrier. Allows one man installs with out uncoilers. I can actually lay down an entire slab without ties, adjust my loops and then go back and tie down. Wider tie spacing is also a help.

Also my Slant Fin baseboard jobs are done with PAP. Spend a day along side a contractor that uses PAP and you may be surprised

Might be more pex manufactures with PAP in their lineup than without, these days Be interesting to know how Wirsbo is doing with the MultiCor. I see they have added another fitting and press tool specfically for PAP. Hmmmm

hot rod

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Jim Erhardt

?????

So how does one go about pulling PAP through floor joists? Particularly, how do you pull a loop down a bay if the stuff keeps holding its shape at every bend? Not trying to be a PIA, but I have handled PAP and cannot figure out how one would do this.

Have you used PAP with ThermoFin? Once it distorts being pushed into the channel, how does it "undistort" to make full contact for proper heat transfer? Does it hold tight in the channel like Pex? Seems to me its "holds it shape" characteristics would be a big-time disadvantage in a ThermoFin application.

Maybe I'm just being thick-skulled about this, but I remain cordially unconvinced that PAP has the same wide range of practical application that Pex has. But, I am keeping an open mind....

Ted_9

Is PAP like Viegas Fostapex (aluminum coated)?

hr

I'd be glad to

show you on my next install. Hop on the Slant Fin "Lear" and come on out Bring Noel along, we'll PAP in the morning and bass fish in the afternoon

There are some installation videos out there that show the pulling method.

I was actually able to "push" loops of PAP over plumbing and mechanical "stuff" in this install last year. I worked most of the job alone from a rolling scaffold. Once you get the loop formed you push away. I have pushed 30 foot loops into joist spaces. Never been able to get regular coiled pex to do that.

As for ThermoFin the fin allows the tube to be inseted just as it does with regular pex or copper tube. The PAP does not "egg" out when driven into the plate. Of course a lot of this has to do with the design of the ThermoFin and the extra aluminum in the right spot to allow the chanel to expand and close back providing the superior grip.

That's not the case at all with the thinner extruded or flashing metal type of transfer plates.

I'm pretty sure you have some ThermoFin on hand to try some experiments with.

Plenty of PAP extruders, around the globe, currently loking for US manufactures to distribute their products here


It is also a great match for Warmboard and other pregrooved panels. It forms and stays in the curved ends much better and requires very little silicone to stay put.

It's something you really need some hands on with to realize the difference.

Offer stands even if the Lear is booked

hot rod

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Bill Nye

Ted, Yes

PAP is short for pex-al- pex . Pex in the inside, then Aluminum, and then pex on the outside. Stadler - Vega frosta-pex is pex-al-pex.PAP.

Jim Erhardt

Thanks!

Hot Rod, thank-you for your patience and taking the time to explain!

As you can imagine, the growing diversity of products and installation techniques are a great benefit to the installer and end user. From a manufacturer's or supplier's point of view, it's becoming much more difficult. Some guys want "natural color" Pex so they can see air bubbles, others want their Pex a color to hide the accumulation of corrosion inside the pipe. Some guys want 300-foot coils, others want 400-foot coils. Some guys want to use only "A" Pex, others want "C" Pex, and still others don't give a hoot about the "alphabet soup" arguments. Some guys want Pex, others want PAP, and (evidently) some still want some kind of hose product. Some guys want fancy manifolds with flow gauges and a long list of fancy accessories, others are quite happy with a simple copper manifold for it's economy and reliability. Some guys want fancy clips to hold their (Pex, PAP or hose), others are quite happy with simple cable ties. There are those who are willing to pay a bit more for quality, there are those who buy strictly on price. And the list goes on and on.

Manufacturers/suppliers cannot carry *all* of this stuff and be all things to all people, especially considering the economics of most radiant lines. At some point, decisions have to be made about design philosophy and what products will be offered, otherwise everyone becomes a "me too" player. Once that happens, it all comes down to who has the lowest price.

Approximately 8% of all homes in the U.S. are heated with hydronics. Of that 8%, how much is radiant? In the big picture, radiant probably does not represent even 1% of the total home heating market.

The bottom line is that there are many products/players competing in an extremely small market. While the proliferation of "new products" is in many ways a good thing, there is a downside related to what I'm talking about here. At some point, players/products start falling out of the game because it is no longer economically viable for them to stay in.

And when that becomes the trend, everyone loses...

hr

I feel your pain, Doc

And just when I thought the contractor had the most challenges in the radiant business

I, too, am one of the contractors that likes to hitch my wagon on the newest and brightest star and like seeing all the new technology.

With your clear understanding and insight I now see how tough it can be to keep all the contractors smiling, all, or most, of the time, from a manufacturers standpoint

Certainly the diversity of products used and prefered show if one were to spend some time here at the Wall! Keep an eye on that Globalpipe newsletter. It seems to be a good indicator as to what's working and what's bombing.

Let's see if your crystal ball outshines the others. Good Luck

hot rod

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Wayco Wayne_2

I use PAP

on all staple down and tie down applications. I just used it recently running new lines to old cast iron radiators after cutting out the old gravity lines that dominated the passage through the basement. Ofmh! another 2 inch pipe to the forehead. Now the Homeowner has a clear ceiling and is finishing off the basement. We ran all the PAP through a bulkhead down next to the I beam all from a manifold next to the new boiler. It's nice to work with and stays in place. It is not like wrestling an anaconda like regular PEX. (By the Way, saw on some movie previews that Anaconda 2is due to come out soon. Who watches this stuff?) WW

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