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Outdoor Reset Savings

2

Comments

  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    I can understand your assertion that reset savings are "smoke and mirrors" or "snake oil"--but only to a degree.

    Just because a change in conditions does not have a definite and calculable effect does not mean that it has no effect or an unpredictable effect.

    If you believe in the theory of evolution, think of this: Take a population of different creatures in some relatively constant environment. Change the mean temperature 10°. Not only will the relative populations of each creature change compared to one another, but the creatures themselves will eventually change over time.

    BUT, you're not going to be able to predict how this occurs with any degree of accuracy until it already has occurred--you just know that there will be changes.

    Now you might be able to find a similar place with a similar population and make the same change--but you're STILL not going to be able to accurately predict the outcome.

    By your logic, you would now have to say that evolution is not scientific.

    -------------------------------

    Look at reset in similar terms. It's been around for over 60 years. Users, engineers and workmen alike all claim that it results in a savings of fuel. The most advanced heating appliances on the market invariably use reset in some form.

    I suppose it could still be "snake oil" but I HIGHLY doubt it as I know my fuel use reduced when reset was used.

    There are of course MANY forms of reset--even proportional devices like TRVs really are reset of a sort.

    Is outdoor reset the best? Who knows, but I do know that it's better than no form of reset at all and that it will reduce fuel use in real-world conditions.
  • Christian Egli
    Christian Egli Member Posts: 277
    The 18PSI question

    Water, just like any other liquid, is considered incompressible, that means you can't change its volume by changing its pressure (you can change the volume by changing the temperature, though, that's what expansion tank are for)

    To increase the pressure in your 10 gallon boiler from 0 to, say 18 PSI it takes no water whatsoever! It only takes air pressure which you have to pump up on the air side of the expansion tank. Pump it up to 18 PSI, and with no circulator running you will be able to measure 18 PSI everywhere in your system. Magic!

    What happens when you start the fire? Well, you change the temperature of the 10 gallons of cold water and when you do that, you change the volume of that water. It grows. Now you will have (and I am picking a number from a hat, like a magician) 10.5 gallons of hot water.

    Where does that half gallons squeeze itself since liquid water is incompressible? Easy, it makes a bulge on the side of the cast iron boiler...

    Oh but wait, remember, we have the expansion tank, and we filled it with air earlier. That's where our extra half gallon went, it elbowed its way in with the air. Now, air is a gas and it behave according to the ideal gas law, which means that if you shrink its volume you increase its pressure (and you can also increase its temperature, but we are not doing that here). A look at our magic expansion tank shows us that the initial volume of air is now half the size, and from that we can conclude that pressure doubled from 18 to now 32 PSI.

    This pressure will appear everywhere in the system (with no circulator running), so now our initial 10 gallons have gone up to 32 PSI and we still have not added a drop of water.

    It's all smoke and mirrors!

    Something else happens to water when it is under pressure, and this will bring me back to what steam does. He he, do I have an agenda or what?

    You know how genies come out of their lamp, just when you hit 212 F under atmospheric pressure, like steam does? Well, if you keep your finger on the spout, you will in effect require that the temperature and pressure be raised before any steam can appear. If you maintain 32 PSI in your system, you would need to go up to 277 F before any boiling action appears (this data comes from steam tables, not magic). The energy you need to do that keeps adding up at about 1 BTU per degree F per pound, it does not matter that you are above 212F, you are not boiling and so, not relying on latent heat.

    This overheating of water is actually done in superheated hot water systems. Oh, so steam is junk because it operates at hotter temperature than straight water? Not in this case, and I don't know what you do with the efficiency arguments, but superheated water is used a lot in district heating throughout Europe. I don't know why really, because it kind of has all the disadvantages of steam and none of the advantages.

    Remember the genie you are holding back, he ready to boil, he's hot, he's at 277 F and you're holding the pressure with your finger at 32 PSI, the lamp is full of superheated water. What do you think happens when you let go your finger? Does it go pshhh or boom? You very suddenly drop the pressure of your 10 gallons of superheated water.

    You see, your water is now at atmospheric pressure and free to boil. All of it, instantaneously! 10 gallons of mild mannered water turns into somewhat like (it depends on how high your superheated temperature was)17,000 gallons of raging steam. I think the genie is getting back at you with a vengeance. Big time.

    But wait, are genies good or evil?

    I do not understand why people fear steam heating systems at 1 or 2 PSI so much, and at the same time, think that a pressurized hot water boiler looks so innocent. Yet we all know what happens to cars when they boil over!

    Superheated water is dangerous because is looks so deceptive. Parents at home, make sure your boiler is equipped with all the safety measures and that particularly includes your hot water heater.

    So, steam is good! Weren't we talking about outdoor reset anyway? Oh well, I'm sorry, I do get carried away.

    I'm cooled off now, that's good.

    Thanks for reading and thanks for the fun.

    Christian Egli

  • Christian Egli
    Christian Egli Member Posts: 277
    A cold chill after a hot sweat?

    I am curious, Weezbo,

    The cold water circulation sounds like a good idea for control purposes, it would certainly allow for quick and precise tuning, kind of like what happens in a lot of air handling units where two air streams one heated and one cooled that are mixed proportionally to what is needed in the room.

    With your idea, the pump cold option, it does what with the heat it takes out of the radiant loop? I know it does not turn back into fuel if you circulate it through the boiler. Would you use some kind of cooling coil that dumps the heat outside?

    Comparing with air units again, this sounds like the schemes that are used take advantage of favorable outdoor conditions. It seems this could save on conditioning costs.

    Keep us posted,

    Christian Egli

  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    It is clear as a bell to me.

    if you look at all work as an investiture in BTU's instead of dollars. i get up out of bed in the mornings - btu's i make some coffee - btu's i make some toast- btu's i drink the coffee+ bTU's i eat the toast + BTU's..... this is kinda simple.... now say i heat the house with 1000 K BTU's all at once i pound it into the joint! :) it is hotter n blue blazes! thermostats cant even READ that kinda heat:) now heres Hot rod over there...he takes the 1000k BTU's and Squeezes them out of his tightly wound hydronic system so it lasts days:) true..it never gets so hot that the thermostats about to melt off the wall however it is comfortably warmer than the original starting point. here is Why...the outside temperature is 64 the inside temerature is 60...the boiler temperature is 142...he needs to raise the room 5 degrees in the morning so he allows a specific amount of BTU's into the distribution system..we will call that his Domain... now in his domain he wants the temperature not to exceed 65+/-1¡ã..and not go lower than 64 so we will call that the range he wants these BTU's to hang about in ,in his domain. unlike me hes happy keeping the BTU's in that range in his domain....now there are some couplla few ways to go about distribution hes happy with lowering the water that leaves the boiler so it cannot change beyond the range he has selected. so he pulses a shot of 142¡ã water at the distribution system and it changes the water temp by many degrees this water temp is outside of the range he wants his Domain however the pulse of water is selected to be distributed over a very short time 3 min's..then the sensors he has indicate that indeed the BTU's are being delivered and distributed hes happy with that so the control keeps circulating these BTU's till they are all over the place in justa bout every corner of his domain:) the control now takes a reading once again of the outside temperature its still 65 buh the room is one degree warmer the return temperature sensor says its now 63 degree water flowing through the domain so it sends another timed pulse out into the domain this time a bit longer say4 min's now the water temp in the boiler is going down a bit..however it is still in the 140 ish area and all is well:) now the sun comes out and shes Blazing away! Its going 70 outside in the last 15 mins! now somethings happened in the equasion...the boiler is now going to be told by the controller that indeed there is some likelihood that as hot a temperature will not be needed to satisfy Hot Rods Domain:) so it shuts off this time the temperature readings are taken and the burst or pulse of water is for two mins 15 mins later its 75 outside and the slab is 65....ok now what? the boilers off its still got BTU's in it the slabs warm in his Domain everything is in the range he wants it to be however outside it is getting hotter in the field. shes about 10 degrees hotter as it were, in the field ,than he wants it to be in his domain. it is clearly out of the range that he wants it to be...so the controll says ok wait amin here this time there will not be a pulse injected into the distribution system based on the current information at my disposal. so it just circulates the water around in his domain and it comes back 66¡ã so now it has a bit of a delima what to do...it takes a reading of outside then inside the domain and then the return temps of the distribution system the boiler temps are going down a bit because it is off. so the system is the only thing the controller has left to boss around so it turns iT off Also!. all day long its hot outside in the field...hot rods domain is plenty warmer than he would have liked how ever he had the for sight to install some place to store heat asorbed by his radiant system in his domain should it exceed the range that he was comfortable with due to an increase over time in the field around his domain:) this also gains information from the outdoor sensor and closes off the boiler with a zone valve entirely.another pump came on after a few hours as it was near 72¡ã in his domain. this pump circulates water about in a storage area that is colder than the night temperature of 56...it has its own controller:) it tells the recirc used to distribute heat about in hot rods domain to turn on for a pulse time of say 2X as long as the last time it had any information whatsoever...now it takes a reading of the range field and domain and determines that indeed it is outside of the range that hot rods domain is supposed to be...(the boilers Been Off mind you for hours!) so this time it says ok increase the circulation to 3X the previous length of time..all the rest of the day these things do this stuff:) hot rod left susie cream chease home as she s a better pr guy than he is a plumma:) shes not really unhappy though because hes got somesortta new gizmo lashed to the house with outside reset and indoor temp sensors and a veritable Jungle of pipes and gizmoes displaced about the home and shes kinda cool in his domain:) after all hes the one outside in the field baking his brain right now:) clump clump clump here he is now wid his red wings on:) whews he says "ITs HOT!" naturally susie thinks hes noticed ...:)oops i digress...
    oki so lets say it is now a hellofva turn of events and the freezing rain comes blasting down from the clouds that rolled in just as he was hitting the front porch steps...its 68 inside and 78 outside so the cooling side of his gizmo has been doing its job he allows 2 degree over temp when running and 6 degree over temp in the field. the next reading its 70 ouside ! and so the control says ok wait a momment lets have the system pump run at 4x-1x this time. 15 mins later its 65 out side! well its ok as it is still 66 in the domain...he like it being 66 as susie seems to feel cool:)oops i digress so now 15 mins later its raining hailing and WOW! ITS 44 degrees outside! boiler dont even knowit :) the cooling system has stored heat and is happily telling the pumps(recircs what ta do :) ...Now heres the deal...the boiler also has plenty BTU's in it :) however there is a coupla more gizmoes that the Ladds got keeping an eye on the domain:) they still able to disperse the BTU's they collected throughout the day.... about two am the cooling side has given up the BTU's it gained through the day...its cold outside the boiler quiet as a mouse.... the control relinquish command and the boiler controller and system distribution are now doing thier thing...its 35 ouside and looks like it may snow! the boiler is happy though and the zone valve opens...it does this for the next three days...and Hot rods system is still gotta couppla BTU's left:) my house is colder than ,...well lets jus t say its chilly:) my thousand BTUS baked my brains for a while now i gotta work my derrier off to get some more...hey who needs outdoor reset anyway?
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
    Evolution?

    Mike,

    I have a deep respect for your opinion and have always enjoyed your point of view (as I watch quietly from the sidelines), but I have to differ on this one. Evolution is definitely NOT scientific.

    Best regards (and I mean that),

    Bob Tonner

    President

    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Umm, how about....

    .... keeping religious issues out of our heating forum. We have enough trouble as it is with partisan politics, I'd prefer religious conflicts to be limited also.

    Whether or not you believe in evolution versus a very literal application of the bible text does not take away the reality that outdoor reset will save energy in hydronic applications due to its improvement of system response vs. changing weather conditions.

    How much energy is actually saved can be split between anecdotal evidence gathered in the field, as well as that found in scientific research labs around the world.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
    Who said anything about religion?

    All I am saying is that it is not scientific in my opinion. Any evidence that has been proposed (from what I can see) is pretty flimsy, and the whole concept of evolution flies directly in the face of Entropy.

    Bob Tonner

    President

    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    I guess...

    ... we must have gone to very different schools then. From the courses I took back then and the reading I have done in the meantime, I'm fairly convinced that the evidence was/is spot-on WRT to evolution as a means of explaining the plethora of species this planet has produced and the different niches these species have exploited to maximum effect. Furthermore, the only people I have met that oppose evolution were hardcore christian religious zealots.

    Thus, please accept my humble apology, since I should not have presumed you to be a bible-thumper simply because your post made you sound like one to me. However, the real issue being dealt with in this thread is the savings related to outdoor reset. Let's stick to that.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    I have had this idea in my head for decades!

    I lived in Bermuda ..It gets kinda Warm in Bermuda every one has an appreciation for a/c the stone the houses are made from dont allow for lots of creative duct work....here is my some what simple idea in a nut shell. the larger the Body of mass...the longer it takes to change its temps either up or down...........what is cooler a hundred ton of iron or a hundred ton of water:) well it would depend on its ability to absorb or disperse heat ..... next hot day at the beach wait till 10 pm...its cool outside. AIR is cool . take a dip:) The Waters Warm:) it has more mass than the AIR........ any problems with that so far?
    ...The ground well :) how about that ! funny deal that :) it has closer denser elements....the stuff is really warm...so...there is the entire idea in a nutshell. deeper in the ground the less the solar gain is changing or affecting these elements...let me offer this quite simple observation,while putting sewer or water laterals under ground in Alaska I having had frost bite have my hands freeze and turn white today its 90 outside,...i am able to determine the place has PLENTY of COLD:) For Free:) not too many places in America that i have been That i have not noyiced this phenomena:) so what does that mean ?.... well i been 49 states so i could say at least these 49 states have some cold in the ground:) and as Bermuda has a type of special climate in the Horse Lattitudes..i surmise that Hawia is rather similar with the exception of its proximity to the riffs and volcanoes. i have the thought that we are all able to avail our selves of cold and heat by use of the storage of density.and the distribuion of the heat to the cold. with the use of water in tubes:)
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
    okay...

    but I was just responding to Mike's comment:

    "By your logic, you would now have to say that evolution is not scientific."

    ...so I guess I thought that a response was allowed.

    So, Constantin, if I had not responded would you have reprimanded Mike as well?

    What other subjects are we not allowed to offer a differing opinion on, lest they offend?

    Bob
  • David Woycio
    David Woycio Member Posts: 107
    solar with outdoor reset

    I've been following this thread and thought I'd throw my 2 cents

    Back in the day we used to build our own outdoor resets with diff. temp contolls, set point controls and aquastats. They worked fine, but the new resets seem to dial temperatures in more precisely with less or no overheating. The efficiency difference that we are seeing is longer run times using the available solar heat than before. This last winter we ran a system (radiant in slab) down to 83 deg F. mix demand for a couple of days (outdoor temp at 32 deg F) and the house was comfortable 68. Also the 363 (control we use most) like the other tekmar's put's out a lower voltage for variable speed pumping, saving on electricity used during the heating cycle. Our only conplaint with this control (hope someone from tekmar is reading this) is that when a zone would open that had not been on for a while, a flood of cool water would lower the mix demand sensor reading and no matter how hot my solar storage tank was the control would flip back to boiler heat. We have "fixed" this problem by wrapping a hunk of brass around the mix sensor pipe then reattaching the mix sensor to the brass. What this did was alow for some thermal mass to slow the reaction time of the sensor. We have been pretty happy with the contols. Just need to lock them in a case to keep the homeowners form screwing around with them.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Nicely done:)

    like you say outside sensors are alot more tidy these days :) Your resourceffulness seems to have over come the new Designe features:)or has the Bill gates got a patent on the term Designe features:)
  • R. Kalia
    R. Kalia Member Posts: 349


    > Note the points I made above. Anytime a heating

    > system consistently matches the output of the

    > heating plant to actual heating requirements, you

    > will maximize comfort _i__b_and_/b__/i_ energy

    > efficiency. That is, unless you like to live in a

    > house where the indoor temperature varies

    > significantly.


    Saying it does not make it true. The fact that it is "obvious" does not make it true. What is the evidence?

    The ancient Greeks thought there must be a southern continent, terra australis, the same size as the land mass they knew. They had figured it out logically---if they are not exactly the same size, the world would tip over.
  • R. Kalia
    R. Kalia Member Posts: 349
    none exist

    > This is a forum for trades people,

    > with only a smattering of researchers and

    > engineers. So it's easy to throw the "not

    > scientific" arguement at these people. Why don't

    > you tell the folks at the US national labs and

    > any number of European universities that they

    > aren't scientific about this work. Then, no

    > doubt, you would say it's not real world.


    There is not a single such study. Jut because people are not engineers doesn't mean they can't provide a reference to such a study. No one has provided one---because you cannot. You can only make vague and intimidating references to such studies, which is a classic example of snake oil sales.
  • R. Kalia
    R. Kalia Member Posts: 349
    ouch! ouch!

    > Once you understand the

    > beauty of a PID controller in this sort of

    > application, the anecdotal evidence that the

    > installers here have collected will make a lot

    > more sense. Note, even though the knowledge of

    > differential equations are allegedly a

    > pre-requisite for this type of course (laplace

    > transformations and all that), I found that a

    > good control-theory professor will teach you all

    > you need to know re: the math in very short order

    > (2 hours or less).


    I'm, like, so intimidated. Laplace transforms, no, no, not that. Next you'll throw Fourier transforms at me and I'll scream and cry uncle. Anything to hide the fact that you don't have any evidence that outdoor reset saves more money than the extra cost to run the circulator longer.
  • R. Kalia
    R. Kalia Member Posts: 349


    > Mike,

    >

    > I have a deep respect for your opinion

    > and have always enjoyed your point of view (as I

    > watch quietly from the sidelines), but I have to

    > differ on this one. Evolution is definitely NOT

    > scientific.

    >

    > Best regards (and I mean

    > that),

    >

    > Bob Tonner

    >

    > President

    >

    > InfinityLab

    > Inc.



  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    It's really rough to come up with an analogy for reset in the real world. "Cruise control" sort of gets it, but not in essence. I did though preceed with "if you believe in the theory of..."

    How about El Ni
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    It's not about the circulator

    The energy savings associated with using outdoor reset have more to do with running the heating plant as little as possible, not the circulators.

    While circulators consume a nominal amount of energy, it is usually insignificant when compared to the energy being converted into heat inside the boiler/furnace/whatever. Do the math yourself, you seem to indicate that you're good at it.

    On the other hand, if you actually understood control theory you wouldn't be making the statements you are making, so perhaps you're just fishing for controversy?
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    What is the evidence?

    Like I said, if you don't know control therory, take a class. The folks participating in this thread have made a good faith effort to help answer your question.

    However, you seem to be approaching this subject with a made-up-mind. This in turn is less than helpful. For example, you keep insisting we show proof that outdoor reset saves money. A scan of the scientific literature, anecdotal evidence here, etc. indicate it is.

    So where is your irrefutable proof that the accepted science of outdoor reset is wrong, that customers must be having delusions about their energy savings, etc.? Folks like Tekmar would probably like to know, since their business is built (in part) on outdoor reset.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    This Graph

    Wound seem to be evidence of the effect of reset when taken to the highest means I can currently achieve. On the left it's outdoor reset with indoor feedback via TRVs. On the right, it's digital forced air.

    Note that equipment cycling is gone on the left--not reduced--gone.

    Note the times. Space temp is moving in concert with the solar cycle but at a highly reduced magnitude.

    Even variations caused by occupancy and usage are nearly gone. This is a real-world space; the office in my home.

    Note that temp scales are NOT the same. While I know this is highly subjective, I consider the comfort level to be very similar between these.

    What I can't (but wish I could) tell you though is exactly how to predict the fuel reduction--even when I see the effect.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Hmmmm

    You raised a good point. Should I reprimand Mike for making the statement that evolution is scientifically proven? Well, let's consider my point of view on the subject.
    • Every biology textbook I have ever read mentions the mechanisms of evolution, adaptation, speciation, etc. Until they are proven otherwise (and like you pointed out that is perfectly possible) I will continue to believe in the simple logic of evolution.
    • I have also observed the effects of evolution and speciation first hand in remote areas of the world like Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, etc. The remarkable flora and fauna in those locations also supports the concept of evolution. Mr. Darwin was similarly inspired (though elsewhere).
    • TV programs, web sites, etc. also can be fascinating WRT this subject
    • Therefore, the analogy that Mike made of evolution vs. other alternatives like creationism was apt. Some folks refuse to believe in evolution regardless of the available scientific proof, usually without having a plausible alternative theory or proof of their own.
    So no, I would not have reprimanded Mike because his position reflected accepted science, was an apt analogy to JQP's continuing insistence that OR is snake oil, and because it was but a single sentence in a long post that was actually related to heating, the alleged subject of this board.

    I certainly do NOT make the rules here. This is Dan Holohans board and his love for it and the subject on hand is what makes this place as great as it is. However, Dan has deleted off-topic posts and entire threads in the past, particularly when they clearly meant to inflame passions about a subject that has nothing to do with heating and cooling our homes... and the board is better for it. Thanks Dan!
  • study

    Sure there is a study done of two identical dwellings. It was an independent study that Tekmar provided the reset controls (and has printed the study).

    14% fuel savings with outdoor reset. I quote "Savings will vary depending on many factors, but a recent energy study performed by the Energy Resource Center in St. Paul Minnesota showed that outdoor reset controls saved an average of 14%. Typical payback is under 3 years."

    http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/cspages/csmain.html

    Whats your real name anyway and why are you hiding behind JQ Public?

    Steve
  • JQ Public
    JQ Public Member Posts: 2
    like I said...

    > Like I said, if you don't know control therory,

    > take a class. The folks participating in this

    > thread have made a good faith effort to help

    > answer your question.


    Like I said (in many different ways), theory is not evidence. Would you like an explanation of the difference?
  • JQ Public
    JQ Public Member Posts: 2
    math = evidence?

    > the boiler/furnace/whatever. Do the math

    > yourself, you seem to indicate that you're good

    > at it.


    Is math the same as evidence?
  • Dave Yates (PAH)
    Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
    common sense

    Put this in your smipe and poke it.

    If our hot water systyem contains 10 gallons of water (forget thermal expansion for now), we have just over 83 Lbs of water - let's call it 83 Lbs for the sake of simplifying this equation.

    1 Btu to raise 1 Lb of water 1 degree (let's let that apply across the temp range for simplification too)

    We rarely see design conditions, so a bang-bang control operation ensures we'll overshoot and bounce off of the boiler's limit control. Let's see........

    Start at 70 F & bounce off of 180 F for a 110 F delta-T. That requires 9,130 Btu's without accounting for any circulation or heat emitters.

    Same system with outdoor reset that "sees" a top temp need of 120 F. That's a delta-T of 50 F, which requires 4,150 Btu's.

    If the bang-bang system overshoots, which it can't help but do, and the thermostat is satisfied while the boiler's temp is above the required temp that's needed to offset Btu heat loss, then those Btu's will start to be lost - some to the basement, but many to the chimney or indirect vent (direct vent implies both exhaust and combustion air are piped to the exterior & in a perfect world do not contribute to parasitic heat loss).

    To my way of thinking, this indicates wasted Btu's will be generated (and lost to atmosphere) without outdoor reset. Seems like common sense. Someone mentioned parasitic energy offset via extended circulator run times & that's a valid consideration that should be taken into account. ME wrote about that some time ago and had some interesting figures regarding energy consumption.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Interesting!

    I had a little fun over at Google just now. It's fascinating what the mother of all search engines will find when you type in the right query.
    • Let's start with a pretty Outdoor Reset Sales Brochure from Tekmar. It could be considered self-serving but it explains the virtues of varying the supply temp of the heating plant quite well.
    • Since you're allegedly very good at math, you may appreciate Mr. Siegenthalers primer on outdoor reset. Then buy his book. You might find it illuminating.
    • Next, consider this DoE and ORNL study showing the impact of (among other things) OR in real life. In fact, you may find a lot of ecidence at Oak ridge and specifically within some of its studies (one and two).
    • Argonne National Labs is not far behind with their own study on how outdoor reset prevented the use of the double-hung temperature dampers in a multi-family home. Presumably, comfortably-heated homes that do not require the usage of windows to prevent indoor roasting are more energy efficienct than the ones that do
    • Honeywell also published a study showing that outdoor reset alone would save between 11-23% energy over conventional systems.
    So, you might continue calling it snake oil. However, don't claim that the effects of outdoor reset are not scientifically proven or accepted.
  • WOW, and all I wanted was......

    To see if someone had tapped into national weather, downloaded degree hours, tied in regions, put together a spread sheet where you could put in total therms/gallons of gas/oil used and the BTU of the boiler and come up with an approximation.

    Mmmmmm.

    And all this time I assumed that knowing the fuel usage would take into account the size/waste of the house.

    Mmmmmm.

    Guess it's not so easy of an answer to come up with an approximation.

    Silly me.

    But what a great thread this became :-)
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Interesting!

    I had a little fun over at Google just now. It's fascinating what the mother of all search engines will find when you type in the right query.
    • Let's start with a pretty Outdoor Reset Sales Brochure from Tekmar. It could be considered self-serving but it explains the virtues of varying the supply temp of the heating plant quite well.
    • Since you're allegedly very good at math, you may appreciate Mr. Siegenthalers primer on outdoor reset. Then buy his book. You might find it illuminating.
    • Next, consider this DoE and ORNL study showing the impact of (among other things) outdoor reset in real life. Then consider the following studies in rehab projects with before and after energy efficiency data (one and two).
    • Argonne National Labs also has a study on how outdoor reset prevented the use of the double-hung temperature dampers in a multi-family home. Presumably, comfortably-heated homes that do not require the usage of windows to prevent indoor roasting in the wintertime are more energy efficient than the ones that do.
    • Honeywell also published a study showing that outdoor reset alone would save between 11-23% energy over conventional systems. And yes, they may also be considered biased.
    • The list goes on. If you were a paying client, I'd even write a report for you. Cheers!
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    You beat me to the Tekmar control literature!

    Oh well.

    On the other hand, I am coming to the conclusion that JQP is a flame-baiting troll, looking for a fight. No matter what evidence we show, no matter how accepted the theory, we're apparently always going to be wrong in the mind of he/she/it because that mind is not open to new ideas.

    Whatever.

    On a positive note, we got to dig up interesting information on outdoor reset, which has convinced me once more to install it into the new home.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Whatever.

    Once you show a good faith effort to learn about outdoor reset, it might be worthwhile to respond your posts.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Well, the Honeywell study

    does all that... see my post above for the link. Then look in the appendix, they show the effect of OR by region, city, whatever.

    That's why they published a range of 11-23% in energy savings as a result of using just outdoor reset, as it depends in part on where the house is, the variability of local weather, etc.

    Considering how most hydronics controls these days come with OR built-in, it would be downright wasteful not to use it.
  • jerry scharf_2
    jerry scharf_2 Member Posts: 414
    caution on payback time

    Steve,

    Trying to bring something useful to this discussion.

    I know you were just referring to the tecmar literature, but I really try to stay away from paybacks. The percentage savings for various elements of the system may or may not be separable, but to cost recovery isn't. The price of the tecmar unit is fixed, but the payback will change if you have made other energy savings. Vendors tend to do payback in the best light, which is usually an otherwise modest efficiency system with one improvement.

    So for an initial operating cost of X and savings (in percent/100) of S1, S2, S3, it looks like

    operating cost = X * (1 - S1) * (1 - S2) * (1 - S3)

    In the extreme case, if one of the savings approaches 100%, the payback on all the other savings take forever.

    Since many people make multiple improvements, that payback of the whole system needs to be considered.

    A couple examples of separable and non-separable component changes. Night setback is roughly separable from boiler efficiency. On the other hand, outdoor reset and boiler efficiency are not separable, since the boiler efficiency in condensing units is dramatically changed by outdoor reset but not near as much from CI units.

    By the way, the relationship between outdoor reset and condensing boiler efficiency is part of what makes FBs claims of snake oil so absurd.

    jerry
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Usage issues are a huge factor

    I read one online report where a local condo association was upgraded significantly for energy efficiency. Interestingly enough, energy consumption went UP post-efficiency increase. The reason: Different usage patterns.

    Where before the owners were miserably heating but 1/3 of their space due to drafts, inadequate heating capacity, etc. they now enjoyed their apartments to the fullest. Correspondingly, energy usage went up as well. However, there is no question that more heat stayed longer in their apartments and that it was produced more efficiently than before.

    Payback calculations are also tricky simply due to the fact that weather conditions are variable. Furthermore, few homeowners just install OR when they upgrade their house. OR is but a tool in the toolbox, insulation, weatherstripping, etc. are other essential ingredients towards the goal of an energy-efficient home.

    Having said that, even if you claim just a 5% savings in fuel usage over the course of the heating season, I doubt that the incremental cost of going with an OR vs. non-OR hydronic controller would not be made up in 4 years or less in the average home. That's as good as a payback as I can hope for.
  • Hardcore Christiian Religious Zealot &

    a Bible Thumper also. And very proud of it. Of course we must be careful for "with pride cometh a fall."

    It pays to walk away from the hallowed halls of the university and the lab sometime and look up to the heavens and say. What is the truth? It is amazing what insight will enter the finite mind and reveal the mysterys of the universe.

    Let us not debate this further here but I would be more than happy to discuss it with those interested by e-mail.

  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Hello JQP....

    What good is mathmatics if you dont use the gifts God gave you? not the talents or gifts God gave somebolly else..You. i havent the advantage of higher matmatics i got stuck on axiomatics and matamatical language.still i use the ability to reason and rigorusly to the best of My ability.if i do not fully understand something i read and study and ask for further elucidation at every opportunity. this young guy wanted to understand how the outside reset works and if there are any studies that stand the light of day....i made an attempt to explain it clearly although it may not be easy to follow my thought processes..i have seen the use of outdoor reset long before the teckmar controllers.it isnt something I dreamed up last week it is something i learned many years ago....there are many control stradgies and outdoor reset is just another tool to employ...one means one method to save energy is fine,however there are others also.to dissagree is fine no problem..it is hard to sell a guy a propane cook stove to cook hamburgers with on weekends if hes Happy with burning them with a weed burner...perhaps the qualifications of his happyness is something you he and Locke and Hume might find interesting ...however...what we are discussing isnt argumentum ad balacum nor dazzel them with the fancy scientific language or special languages known only to a select few.....nor does it require some belive it or not assumptions...and it is'nt a logical exercise in limb leading to get people further and further out on a limb and break it off..there are people who used reset and did so for years and are now passed away. it isnt some new kinda wild fantasy or magical slight of hand...perhaps you have never actually observed how it works perhaps i will go to greece with you a momment to visit the cynics...had the japanese had the radar we would be speaking someother language they had not seen it, no special technical data to confirm its existence ,it Worked though! in China They practise accupunture,and western medicine.I can say that very little means of observation with current scientific machines Prove the forces at work there. I can simplify it a bit and say that each organ produces its own Flavor of electricty...that might be difficult to prove ...Zambellis fireworks recipies are there own. that is special knowledge they know it and hey ! they aint tellin:) Out door reset is'nt alchemy or snake oil... something like reset being used is not that biga deal to cope with :) however next time you happen to be ouside and notice a temperature shift after a hard rain or before a turbulent wind think how long did it take you to react....here in alaska,some times the temperature will shift 70 degrees upwards in 15 mins...! or downwards....:( people often lose their lives because of it.... it would be easier on the pocket book, to have a boiler that burns millions of BTU's to shut off in a upward shift . I do not know of a devise that ajudicates seventy below to zero as well as 0 to 70 associated with outdoor reset. out door reset would shut the boiler off 0 to 70 if the set point was around 70 the other way 70 below to 0 that requires slightly different stradegy.same information just different stradegy. 0 to 70 below same deal. the out door sensor alone aint gonna do much is true. that leads to another topic.Is this the idea you feel isnt being explained clearly?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Say! I have an idea:)

    There is a guy by the name of John Cokerill annnd he has a thread at Radiant Panel Associations web site. you can go to His web site and see another control stradgey. He has done his home work and has applied his stradgey to more than one application. forced air ,hydronic and I think steam.any way hes a savey chap. His idea is basically to take readings from two thermostats and sortta have them run lag lead at different flows and they constantly every hour reinforce the information to the boiler through his controller. He isnt using outside reset however he is using porportional temp flows and adjusting the heat plant so it will deliver The BTU's economically and as these readings are taken every hour it assists in delivering the correct amount of BTU's per hour. if you could afford it you could use one of my favorite stradgies...Hire the underprevilidged and outta work!:) Get some college student a refridgerator and an unlimited supply of books and scratch paper...then every few mins he could do some partial differntiation crank a few valves take a few readings and go back to munchin food and studying and reading:) Might be kinda spendy though:)
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    interesting

    Charts, graphs and links to studies come out and Where is Mr J. Q. Public ????

    I guess its to much proof for him..

    Flame baiter... you bet.

    Scott

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • John Cockerill was a guest

    on HVACTV.com last night. He has a web site www.exqheat.com or you can e-mail him at johncockerill@prodigy.net. I have been watching this system he promotes with some interest since I first heard about it. I also believe "steamhead" did something with it.
  • Thank you Dave

    Now that seems like the easiest way to explain how outdoor reset could save them money in the long run . People are savvy and do need info like that to make the right decision for themselves . You cannot just walk in and say it'll save em money without explaining why .
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    John Q. Public Had a Legitimate Question...

    ...that is likely in the minds of many other John Q. Publics.

    There certainly could have been MUCH higher flames considering he initially compared reset to religious faith.

    The outcome would [seem] to demonstrate otherwise.



This discussion has been closed.