Important to read this!!!

Firedragon_4

Over the weekend please read this and I would also ask a favor. Please make 2 more copies. Give one to a fellow tech that doesn't believe and one to your boss.

Education in this case is FREE, the alternative could be terribly expensive.

http://www.petroretail.net/fon/2004/0405/0405cbn.asp

Mitch_4

Interesting read

I worked for a gas utility for 10 years, when those first detectors came out. Great for overtime, not for sleep.

I test mine annually, and replace it if it fails. I test the new one right away. We can use the gas utilities test station for calibrating their CO detectors. its a tank of 25ppm CO. I just blow it across the unit to see if it reacts accordingly.

I find it amazing that there are so many out there that get ignored...there kinda like car alarms. One manufacturer had in his instructions that if the alarm sounded, to place the unit in free air (like outside) for 24 hours and retest. if alarm sounds again, call fire dept.

WOW! I thought...there is some GREAT ADVICE! get some sleep and IF you wake up, retest for CO. Amazing.

I could write for hours on this subject. (kinda like Mark E)

'THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN gENIUS AND STUPIDITY IS THAT GENIUS HAS ITS LIMITS" Albert Einstein

Thanks for the good read Firedragon.

Mike

Firedragon_4

My pleasure, and to inform is to educate!

Christian Egli

How about getting a pet canary bird?

Well that figures why I have never seen my CO detector do anything. I am glad though, but a little dissapointed and now more and more suspicious - it is about ten years since I've got mine and it hasn't ever produced the faintest beep, even when I tried fooling it. Up until I read your article, I just thought it was smarter than me.

Oil vs. gas CO problem.

I do believe an oil burner is much safer just because of the way it is piped to the chimney. There is no draft hood to spill the CO, and, if used, a barometric damper doesn't just stay wide open. Oil fires are always forced which lessens the problems caused by a chimney with bad draft. Lastly, oil burners and boilers require more maintenance than a happily ignored gas furnace, and so, frequent smoke analysis and adjustments keep your CO in check. I said safer, not fool-proof though.

Ted_9

So what type or brand of CO detector should we get????

Dean_7

CO Exposure

I am a home owner who frequents this site for the good information it contains and I have a story to tell. My mother in law died a couple of months ago. she had been ill for several years with respritory problems so it wasn't unexpected. However when we took her to the hospital and her labs came back her ABG's (arterial blood gasses) indicated a severly elevated carboxyhemoglobin level. This is a measure of exposure to carbon monoxide. While this did not cause her death it contributed to it. In back tracking to find out where the CO came from what we found was her oxygen concentrater ( she needed home oxygen for years as millions of people do) had been placed next to the heating vent (forced hot air). The furnace was producing low levels of carbon monoxide and her oxygen concentrator had concentrated it along with the oxygen in the air. Oxygen concentrators will concentrate all gasses present in the air around them. The point of this is the furnace had been producing low levels of carbon monoxide for some time and the CO detector present did not trigger and alarm because it was below its threshhold. Long term CO exposure is insidius and can cause multiple health problems with very vague symptoms. Please continue to tell people to maintain their heating systems using licensed professionals and if any of your customers have oxygen concentrators to locate them well away from any heating vents or any other gas burning appliance.

Constantin

COExperts seems to be the unit of choice...

... at least as far as Mark Hunt, Firedragon, George Kerr (the owner of COexperts), and many others are concerned. Some folks might take Mr. Kerr's CO article with a grain of salt simply because he owns a company that is selling competing CO detectors. However, please note how he disclosed his potential bias by listing all his affiliations at the bottom of the article.

As a mere engineer homeowner, I happen to like the concept behind the COExperts unit (i.e. ignore UL standards if they violate applicable long-term CO exposure standards) and plan to install several units in my home. For me, the reasoning that Mr. Kerr presents as to why his units are superior appears to be sound. The consensus on this board also appears to be favorable WRT to the COExperts units.

Considering all the hoopla Mr. Kerr is raising, I wonder how long it will be before an ambulance-chaser will start a class-action lawsuit and bring the other players in the CO detector industry to their knees. There seems to be a steady supply of dead/dysfunctional folks as a result of not getting proper CO warnings, so there should be no shortage of plaintiffs.

Firedragon_4

Hi Christian, you are very correct

in most of your observations about CO and oil vs. gas with the exception of one. Barometric dampers. :-(

Fluegasses don't follow any specific direction, they must be led and in most cases proper draft (air) flow is the key. Fluegas will back up through ANYTHING that is open and it has and I've seen it (a lot). Unlike valves in P&H I have never seen a flow arrow on a piece of fluepipe. :-)

I am not an advocate of dampers and never have been on any fuel, I am an advocate of good air (draft) flow. Anyone who promotes dampers in favor of a solid pipe with the correct devices at the inlet, through the run and at the terminus need more training and a lot of it.

I am for the elimination of all devices that draw air from the structure. Bring it in from outside, control it and pump it out. True, the outside air must be warmed, the control must be as finite as possible and the termination must be from a absolute source, but due to the technology and research available it can be done.

Enjoy your weekend!

Unknown

CO Experts is the detector of Choice

it is not available over the counter. It is sold directly to contractors to be sold to their customers. I have been involved with the CO problem for almost as long as George Kerr (he is older than I am) and can tell you it is very difficult to get people to pay attention to this silent but deadly killer.

The UL 2034 alarm point 70 PPM is definetly too high. It has been shown that many different groups (pregnant women, babies, elderly, those with respiratory problems the list goes on) can be affected by as low as 30 PPM. A low level detector is the answer. I would also love to see a system that would shut off the faulty equipment (gas or oil) in the event of dangerous levels of CO. There is a system Ultra-Gard but it uses a high level detection system for it detectors. I would like to see CO Experts hooked up with a whole house alarm system and equipment shut off.

I would also like to see better sensors for use in the equipment itself to shut it off in the event of poor combustion. If nothing else we would have less boilers and furnaces to clean. It would also mean that service techs would have to do annual tune-ups and combustion testing to make sure equipment keeps running.

We need efficiency police here in the USA.

I ahve been preaching this now for over 40 years and slowly but surely we will get everyones attention.

Christian Egli

How big should the arrows be?

Right, from now on I'm drawing arrows on my flue pipes and pouting faces on the barometric dampers. That should help clear out the smoke...

I agree with you about the usefulness of barometric dampers, I doubt how much energy savings you get out of them. You trade drafting air through a warm boiler for taking out indoor hot air.

As far as pumping smoke, I am not entirely comfortable with that. So you have a blower right after the fire that pushes the smoke into a pressurized pipe to the outdoors, any crack in that pressurized pipe and you don't have smoke leaking out, it spewing out. Notice how manufacturers are worried stiff about a loss of pump pressure, they install so many checks in the unit.

I would much prefer an outdoor blower that sucks all the smoke through a pipe that is now under a vacuum. Just like the good old chimneys which are also under (a slight) vacuum.

Hey, thanks for the CO post and the opportunity to learn something

Christian Egli

Firedragon_4

I love mechanical draft, you

just can't beat a fan. I used to love chimneys, but not at -350F and downdrafts.

On oil I prefer a burner that can do it all and most can today. In C/I it was almost always possible, but residential has come a long way. Pre-purge, fire and post and it works just great.

Gas is somewhat tougher with pilots, but with power burners, fans and DSI systems it's a lot easier today too!

My pleasure and keep learning!

Mitch_4

interesring you mention the canary

A co-worker of mine responded to one of those false alarms and when he found nothing, jokingly commented on the fact that she (a senior lady) had a couple of canaries and if there was CO, the birds would be the first to go, like the miners used to use em for.

That night one died.

She called back in freaking out. Natural causes, but He never used that example again.

Mike

Mitch_4

GET IT CHECKED!....NOW

I nOte that you said there was CO being produced by the furnace, and being circulated by the blower. If such is the case:
1- your heat exchanger is cracked, and the furnace needs to be replaced.
or 2- you have inadequate combustion/ventilation air in the space, with inadequate ductwork. as such when the circualting blower cycles, it is drawing air from the mechanical room, and interferring with the venting.

Most likely 1. The products of conmbustion should not be inthe circulating air.

GET IT CHECKED NOW!!! This is NOT the normal operation and others may need to be checked for CO poisoning!

Hope everyong else inthe house is ok. My sympathies for the loss of your mother.

Mike

Dean_4

CO Exposure

The Furnace was replaced. The point was to warn that ANY CO exposure is serious especially so in people with compromised respritory function.
Thanks

Mitch_4

Glad to hear

I posted that message because you didn't say what happened with the furnace. I do forced air, with a smattering of hydronics, and cruise here to gain knowledge. I too believe that CO can be beat with training and education.

Just wanted to make sure

Mike