wood flooring and radiant heating

Alan J Weber

Going to build a timber frame home and want to put Brazilian Cherry throughout. Can you put radiant heating under this? I called Bellawood twice and got two different answers. I don't want it to warp or crack. It will have hot water in the winter and cold water in the summer. It is Radiant Tech heating. thanks much

Alan J Weber

wood flooring and radiant heating

forgot to say the flooring is Brazilian Cherry in 3 1/4"x 3/4"

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Previous thread

from one of the best, Paul Pollets:

Date: September 06, 2002 10:32 AM
Author: Paul Pollets (Paul@advancedradiant.com)
Subject: Brazilian Cherry

I've installed several projects using this hardwood. One is an 18,000SF
home using in-slab and staple down and overpour methods. The
hardwood is perfect 4 years later...no warping or cupping. The
hardwood was conditioned and acclimated and installed using the
Bollinger method. Acclimation is the key and proper installation takes no
shortcuts. Floor temp design must not exceed 85 degrees on the coldest
day. Brazilian cherry is the least stable of the hardwoods, and I would
not recommend it for a staple-up application. You may be asking for
trouble. If you like adventure, have Wirsbo review your calcs and
installation guidelines before proceeding.


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Brian_24

Me thinks if he is looking at radiant tech he will not be interested in what a legit company as wirsbo has to say.
Good luck,
Brian

S Ebels

Yep!

That particular wood and a Radiant Tech system should be........... shall we say, interesting.

I'm thinking Mr Weber should ask for a written performance gaarruuuuntee from the folks at Radiant Tech. Probably costs extra though.

Troy_3

Pictures?

I would love to see pictures after a couple years. Spend for the good floor and then we will all act surprised when the floor is destroyed by this hocus pocus system under it. We are currently fixing a system we bid on 4 years ago. The homeowner saved money and cheaped out- now they are inconvenienced and paying more than it would've cost up front. Eventually people realize being cold in their new home isn't worth the small savings that they opted for. Education can be very expensive. Why not put a good heating system in and save on the flooring?

Constantin

Hee Hee

"Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted"

Fitting, no?

Alan J Weber

you're saying radiant tech is not a good heating system? What is?

guest

.

Alan, what the folks on this board are alluding to is that you don't want to use Randiant Tech as your SOLE source of info and materials for your heating system.

If you do decide to purchase material from them, you would be well advised to FIRST hire and conult with a REAL radiant professional, as the company you are considering does not do radiant the way most experienced pros would. There are a few folks on this board and also over on the radiant panal association board that would work with you to get a fantastic radiant system at a fair price.

Also, if your flooring is gonna cost more than your heating system, that should tell you something right there about the quality of the heating system.

Don't take short cuts with the radiant system.

Chuck Baldwin

I'm no installer or dealer, just a savvy consumer. I would recommend you use a reputable system, dealer and installer. You should contact WIRSBO. I also suggest Warmboard for your underflooring. With Warmboard you should be able to operate at a lower temperature which will be less stressful to your wood floor. Use a laminated flooring if possible which will also reduce the potential for warping. There are several manufacturers of good quality laminated flooring which are every bit as good as the solid flooring, and more economical. The way you are currently going you are heading for trouble.

Weezbo

ALan,are you a master carpenter?

if so you are sure to read between the lines on what you are hearing,a compound lock miter joint aint a butt joint with a bunch of 16 d nails "Clenching" the pieces together. could you imagine some guy doing that to your flooring? its about the same thing....all of your furniture would have a unique caliber were it made in the latter of the two methods.yah you might say its cheaper:) and if we used some larger 20d galvies or some decking spike it certainly might have a certain structural soundness....if some one handed you the pieces and vanished saying well heres al the pieces...C Ya ..where ya gonna be?

Unknown

well

As a disclaimer, I am a direct competitor of Radientec's for design and part supply services.

That said, anyone who cannot provide you with a room-by-room heat load calculation, that is more accurate than a 20 or 40 BTU/sq ft "rule of thumb", should not be designing your heating system.

Secondly, if you are thinking of putting in an 'open' system, i.e., no heat exchanger or seperation between heating water/domestic water, I would suggest you think again.

All the particulars of your system can be explained by a good heat load calculation, which provides the info needed to know whether or not your system will damage your floors (and/or keep you comfortable!). Unfortunately, many companies do not practice any kind of rigor in this area and do not stand behind their work. Read the fine print.

_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

bb

some thoughts

Mr. Weber:

Yes you may use radiant heat with hardwoods. Contact the Radiant Panel Association and request a copy of their flooring guide.

It sounds to me like you are using a very high end flooring material. As such, I would ensure that the system you install does not cause any problems for your flooring. Especially with radiant cooling. You certainly do not want any condensation on your new floors.

Look at the find a professional section on this site and get someone local to work with you.

A note to the regular wallies. This gentleman is asking for our advice and experience. Guide Mr. Weber in the correct direction. Take the high road! Remember, he is our guest and we should treat him accordingly!

Warm Regards,

bb

Constantin

Alan,

> you're saying radiant tech is not a good heating

> system? What is?

Constantin

Considering how much you're about to invest...

... a little more homework might go a long way. I am a mere homeowner myself, but I have learned a lot on the Wall about heating systems. Most every installer here will dissuade you from installing a "open" system the way that the RadiantTech stuff is designed. There are several reasons.

For one, an open system is prone to legionella and other bacterial infections. The temperature in the system will not be sufficienctly high to kill legionella (140°F+) without risking serious scalding at the water outlets. Plus, all the heating pipes aren't always flowing with water (esp in summer) and hence an ideal breeding ground for the stuff.

Next, open systems will be affected by oxygen a lot more than a properly-built and installed closed system. That's because every time you open a tap, more fresh water with oxygen enters the system. In a closed system, the oxygen reacts with something inside the system, is bound, and becomes harmless. In an open system, the oxygen keeps getting replenished and hence the system will continue to rust, oxidise, etc. This is quite difficult for most heating appliances to handle and the proper workarounds (bronze or stainless cicrculators, etc.) are expensive.

Just as a side note: Read up on PEX tubing. It is not all created equal. In a heating system, non-O₂-barrier PEX tubing will allow oxygen to permeate into the system even if it's "closed" by design. Given the rather minimal cost differences in PEX tubing (and the rather large labor cost component of getting it installed) I see no good reason to ever justify non-O₂-barrier PEX tubing in a heating system.

In fact, before you proceed any further with Radiantech, I suggest you read Dans book on installing and heating with radiant floors. It's as good a primer as it gets and it will alert you to some of the subtelties of radiant systems that may not be totally apparent.

I consider myself a fairly competent DIY'er. However, heating systems are out of my and most other people's leagues for the simple reason that a lot of experience does go a long way in this industry. I would use the Find a Professional function and see if you can find an installer in your area to go over your system with you. Dan Holohan has also helped some folks int he past find installers when their queries fell on deaf ears.

Lastly, you really need a Manual-J compliant heat-loss calculation to see if the proposed heating system can in fact supply your rooms with sufficienct heat to keep them warm on design days (i.e. the cold extreme). SlantFin is nice enough to offer a free heatloss calculator, other manufacturers do as well. Then compare the heat losses per square foot with the capacity of the various radiant designs to keep up. Staple-up systems in particular are usually less than capable in this regard.

Unknown

a couple of things

1. There are plenty of cases where using non barrier PEX is ok. But combining heating water and domestic water is generally not ok. Whether barrier or non barrier PEX is used depends on the needs for each project.

2. Using a baseboard heatloss calculator often results in numbers that are "conservative" by a fair margin. I'm not sure if they adjust their calculations for BB or whether it's just their way of not getting sued for using their free calculator, but that's what I've gathered from seeing some of the results those calculators put out.

Not that it isn't worth using them, just be aware that heatload calculations are not an exact science and that results will vary.

_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Kal Row

simple rules

use aluminized sub floor for the pex
lay out the wood you are going to use on top of it and run the heat for 2-3 weeks to precondition the wood to the floor and make sure it's crosscut wood

forget cooling in the floor - cant ever solve the condensation problem even in dry climates - put the cooling in the ceiling (run with 60f water) - on ceiling, the condensation seems less of a problem – I think because water is heavier than air – so gravity drops the moisture into the ambient air as it dries – whereas on the floor it has to get a lot drier before it will evaporate – also flat painted sheetrock, will take a much broader temp/moisture range than wood – in any event, keep a spray bottle with Clorox handy to hit mildew at the first sign - i happen to like radiant heating from the ceiling too - only doesn’t work where people have their legs under a table all the time – the ceiling has less mass and responds faster – and is not obstructed – “SHTEEM”, which really was the original radiant heat, in commercial buildings, they mouthed the radiators high on the wall, from where the infra-red light could reach everything – at least those who got it, did it that way – been to many a building like that, and the heat was puurrrrfect

and make sure that you have a forced air system that can dry the house (run with 45f water or refrigerant – can be a hydronic fin-coil-blower under the window - good for fast heating also)

ps i love the idea of doing it all hydronicly - with a good hydronic manifold, and heat exchangers and vari-speed injection - you can do it all - like radiant cooling with pool water or pool heating from the snowmelt system – you can drive any number of heating and cooling loads from any number of cooling and heating sources – sort-of a Hydronic patch panel or matrix switch - the energy is all there, it's just a matter of directing it like a symphony - we have to stop thinking like heating professionals, and start thinking like energy management professionals

now, all we need is for tekmar controls people, to get their cooling act together

Weezbo

My apologies,i wasnt very helpful....

You can indeed use radiant heating stradgies with cherry wood and many other types of flooring with various measurments,styles ,designs and installation practises. it is difficult to determine specific ways to explain them all in a short blurb. primairily though the particular stradgey you may have unwittingly chosen is most likely quite outside its ability to incorperate the wood floor you have your heart set on.:(
even with exceptional care in your undertakings to acclimate the materials,the chances are your every action will simply hasten the floorings early demise.
In the bible it says from this stone that was rejected by the builders i will construct..... well, it may not be like that in this instance.
you are speaking of finish materials so you wont like this much,right now you could consider running new piping for the water supply,and altering your current system to incorperate a slightly different method of control,andperhaps a few more pieces of various radiant products and distribution of controlled heat.
You would be best served by finding someone in your area who sounds something like the qualitative installer of multi temp hydronic systems.
I for one have been at this a while...and i care about my Word.right now i am off to my neighbours home to keep it .i promised to come by and give him some idea of a hydronic system in plase of the forced air system i helped him installa few years ago...at that time i placed some rahau o barrier in the walls so he could make a change in the future...year before last i gave him a good boiler being the christian guy he is he gave it away to someone else:) well his fuel oil useage is off the charts,so ,sorry i gotta bug out.maybe someone in your area is like me. good luck:)

Alan J Weber

Just wanted to thank you all for any help. I did contact WIRSBO and they are helping a lot. Thanks again.

Jim Erhardt

Late to the party....

Yes, you can. Using a good design and control system is key to success.

One job I installed many years ago was with cherry hardwood floors. The radiant was installed under the plywood subfloor using extruded aluminum heat transfer plates and 3/8-inch Pex tubing. The manifolds were piped to a 4-way mixing valve with outdoor reset (with an indoor sensor) on continuous circulation and a maximum water supply cut off setting. This provided two key benefits; (1) raised system temperature just high enough to offset heat loss and (2) provided a maximum supply temp to limit floor surface temperature to about 80 degrees at maximum output. The continuous circulation ensured a very stable level of comfort in the home and help minimize any movement in the wood floor.

I also installed supplemental wall panel radiators, which the homeowner has since told me hardly ever come on.

Remember, it's big changes in the moisture content of wood that causes problems.

I hope this helps!

joel_19

right!!

Most of my radiant systems are under wood , however I refuse to do it without a good reset controll from someone like Tekmar or Viessmann to not do so is asking for disaster. The problem with some companies is they will tell you that's extra stuff that a contractor is just trying to sell you. Pretty foolish of them as your investing alot of money in floors you want to protect. Many times after the cost of the Timber frame and Sips panels I find that the HVAC in a well engineered house is the next biggest line item.
It should be it's the most complex part and can have the greatest affect on the rest of the house not to mention your energy bills, after your mortgage is your biggest monthly hosehold exspense. if you can't afford a really good setup to protect those floors I'd suggest you consider something else such as a radiant wall panel like the Buderous panels and you'll still have a high quality system. That would be much better than a poor quality radiant system

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rod robbins

wood floor

I am curently building a home and am using around 2500sq ft of beach.The wood is very unstabel but i am using an enginered product that is more stable.You could do your cherry in enginered like Kahrs flooring.As to radiant tech please do your reserch.I think you will find there are several manufactures whith great products that will be more than happy to help you I used wirsbo hpex with buderus boiler, floasting action mixing valve with oudoor reset controls.Localy available and reaonably priced.Study this forum and you will find the most comlete list of information on the planet from some of the most knowlagable people in the country.
rod