boiler piping diagrams

Joe_51

In the next week or so I I plan to start piping and installing a boiler that will be used to heat domestic hot water (tankless coil) and supply hot water for my infloor/ceiling radiant install I just finished in our new house. We are allowed to install boilers in our own homes. I have obtained code requirements for the state I live in(Maine).I have looked at the supplied piping diagrams that came with the boiler(Utica SW series) and piping diagrams that are in the back of the WIRSBO Complete Design Assistance Manual (4th Edition) What I am trying to do is pipe in a system that supplies water to two separate manifolds( manifold A supplies heat to the 2nd floor ceiling radiant zones, each one of these zones is controlled by a separate zone valve/thermostat) Max temp. is estimated to be 110 degrees supply. Manifold B supplies 5 zones for the 1st floor floor heating (each zone is conrolled by a separate zone valve/thermostat) I think I need to run a separate circulator for each manifold with a 3 way mixing valve for both manifolds to regulate supply temp. for these manifolds. I'm under the impression that this mixing valve(s) will help protect the boiler from to low return temps. Or I think I need to run a bypass loop for total protection of the boiler. The diagram that I guess shows what I am(or think) wanting to do is page 157 of the WIRSBO book or LEVEL II control non condensing boiler/3way tempering valve/dual temperature RFH If anyone has any ideas or piping schematics they'd like to share I'd love to see them Joey

Joe_51

wirsbo diagram

here is a pic of the wirsbo diagram that I think is what I want to do. This diagram makes the most sense to me

Joe_51

utica diagram

here is the Utica diagram. It is for a single manifold system though, I'm not sure whow to add another circlator pump/manifold to this layout. Did I mention I was a DIY'er ???

Unknown

do you...

do you own any controls yet?

can you supply any flow rates and supply temps for all the above zones?

where in Maine are you?

wheels

Joe_51

DESIGN DATA

Steve, here you go : SWT means "supply water temp." and GPM is flow rate........ MANIFOLD A ----- Family Room: SWT 133 GPM 1.2 Dining Room: SWT 131 GPM 1.08 Kitchen: SWT 98 GPM .58 Sunroom: SWT 137 GPM 1.62 Laundrry area : SWT 102 GPM 0.4 MANIFOLD B -------- Master Bedroom SWT 104 GPM 0.56 Master Bath/closet SWT 104 GPM 0.44 Loft Area SWT 110 GPM 0.54 Bedroom/bath SWT 97 GPM 0.43 I'm in southern Maine LA area

Robert O'Connor_3

LA,ME.

Call Robert O'Connor. He might steer you right.

Do the manifolds have Zone Actuators(Zone Valves)?

Manifold B looks o.k. Temp wise. Manifold A might be another story.

Jed

Joe_51

Robert O'Conner has helped me in the past

Jed, Robert O'Conner has helped me out so far with my selection of a boiler so far. Is your worrys about MANIFOLD A based on the fact of the difference in temp needs of different zones on that manifold ???? Yes I do have zone/valve actuators for each zone on that manifold, I also have flow regulators for each zone on the return manifolds.

Weezbo

Hmmm......

hold on a momment to that idea. save yourself a group of hassel,look into a taco pump block. it keeps stuff simple.your swt or whatever set it and forget it.the variable speed will deal with it. it is going to Moderate temps down,or Up...the mixers they not quite so smart. set the lower temps way down and let the recirculators do the work and let the control ajudicate the whys and wherefores...couple the taco pump block with some ESP valves and Some Expandable 405s 406 exp boxes and the thing will be Way easy To trouble shoot and maintain.

Joe_51

I forgot to mention money is an object

Weezbo, I'll take a lok at the Taco system you talked about......I'm getting farther away from that WH system I ran by everybody last week......

hr

Neither of those drawings

provide absolute certain boiler protection.

If three way thermostatics are your bag, baby, this is the best way to pipe and plumb it. Along with the reasoning, explained in plain english

hot rod

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,126072,00.html

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Weezbo

It is Hard to read between the lines.....

with radiant heat....your two main costs are Insulation AND Control stradgey. now you can designe it for remodel or up grade however alot of times things that are that way tend to stay that way..things basically like to be where they are and like to keep doing whatever they are doing:) Simply put, have a dollar at the end of next year.fuel is ALWAYS costing MORE and MORE insullation is a fixed cost. intelligent control stradgey helps the oil companies keep Thier Hand out of your pocket:)

Robert O'Connor_3

Yes

What is the radiant panel for the first floor, ceiling, sub-floor suspended, staple up, ceiling? You don't want to be running 140F water in the ceiling. Are the manifolds all set, or do you have flexibility at this stage? Supplying 140 degree water will play games with the kitchen and laundry actuators, and wild temp fluctuations in those areas, cycling the actuators. If sub-floor tubing, have you considered heat transfer plates, lowering the required SWT? Are you planning on a differential pressure valve? You will need it(on both manifold circuits). You can set this up Bang-Bang, and it will work.
Boiler protection will have to be thought out(the diagrams you posted are not the answer). Optimizing fuel savings will require more sophisticated controls, not provided by TMV's. By the way, the Taco mixing block WOULD solve obstacles, but do you have 3-4 months to wait for it. Taco is at least that long in shipping product, unless you can find a supplier in Maine who has them on the shelf.

e-mail me, or have Robert give me a call.

Jed

Joe_51

Jed

The upstairs manifold(already mounted)max SWT is 110 degrees, this manifold supplies radiant ceiling heat which uses plates in the installation. The downstairs manifold(not mounted yet) max SWT is 140. This manifold supplies zones that are 1/2 pex installed in a above subfloor sandwich method with lots of plates. Truth be told I don't think I can afford the TACO block system that Weezbo describes. I need to do a simple system without a lot of bells and whistles unfortantly.All of my zones are controlled by a separate thermostat/zone valve.What you would call a bang-bang system.

Joe_51

First floor layout

here is a pic of family room layout,this is typical of rest of install

Joe_51

another

this is dining area

vhlaundry

boiler piping

Have you ever done any radiant before? The rep who sold you the pex should have given you some ideas when selling you his product.There are alot of different piping methods you can use unfortunatly not using a buderus boiler means you have to buy external controls. There are lots of companies that will give there piping ideas, but given somebody did your design, I would think they should give you the design on piping.

Weezbo

the pictures at the link Hot Rod provided are \"on\"...

take a look..

Joe_51

how I got this far...

The person I bought the material from also designed the pex layout,when I was done laying pipe he was to "finish" the design( size pumps,piping,ect) I have not been able to contact/get in touch with him to finish this part.That's why I am seeking help here.

Unknown

boiler mmanufacture

makes little or no difference. controls and temp can be handled seperatlty