loctite sealing thread

jack z

I am about to install a Buderus boiler. Buderus has included a container of loctite sealing thread for use on the transitional straight thread fittings. I have never used this material before. Any tricks or hints for getting a leak free connection. Thanks.

Constantin

Well, if it's like the locktite I use...

Note, I have never installed a Buderus boiler. In fact, I'm a homeowner, not a contractor... Therefore, I may have no experience with the particular type of Loctite you're using.

However, I use Loctite all the time. Just yesterday, I used the generic automotive "blue" variety to secure my summer tire wheel-bolts to the car. That way, the bolts will not loosen and vibrate off, the lubrication helps with getting the torque right also. The blue stuff is meant to be removable, the red stuff sets, never to be undone.

I believe most of these glues are variations on cyanoacrylates, i.e. superglue. They harden in the absence of oxygen, i.e. once the bolt/thread/etc. is in place, not before. There is a version of Loctite for everything. A quick look over at the McMaster Carr catalog indicated something like 10-12 pages worth. I'm sure that's just the beginning.

Anyway, the application instructions call for coating the first couple of threads 360°, then inserting the bolt/pipe/whatever into its final place. Loctite is easy to use, seals up nicely, and makes me sleep better at night.

I presume that the Loctite that Buderus included with their boiler is meant primarily to seal the threads against leaks and secondarily to keep the components together despite heat/cold expansion contraction, vibration, etc.

Matt Undy

I believe some of the formulaitons are just thread sealers without loacking properties. It depends entirely on which formulation it is as to why it was included with the boiler.

Matt

hr

Clean is the key

make sure the connections are free from oils, etc. cleaners are made for this. I use an electricial contact cleaners for my nut and bolt application.

Also check loctites web site for tips and tricks.

hot rod

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Weezbo

Thats New to me.

When did that happen? Buderas sends it with now ...?...Hmmmm....maybe i ought to look around in the box:)

Patchogue Phil_22

lug nut

How long of a breaker-bar extension do you need to get off those loctite-secured lug nuts? :-)

Constantin

Not that bad...

...the blue variety of Loctite is really only good to prevent loosening via vibration. It has the consistency of spent chewing gum when 'dry'.

I apply 95lbf of torque to each bolt when I mount the rims, a little more to get them off. No big breaker bar required - I use what came with the car.

What worries me more than anything is the 'safety' bolt that is meant to prevent car thieves from running off with rims. I hear that damaging the "key" for that bolt is easy, yet that getting the key replaced is difficult. I feel like I should order a spare, seeing that it's probably just a matter of time before I manage to have a Homer moment.

Patchogue Phil_22

careful !!

Over torquing those lug nuts WILL definitely warp your brake rotors. Can crack mag wheels and warp ANY type of wheel. Tighter is not better!

Steel wheels/rims generally are torqued to *only* 70 to 75 lbs.

Wayco Wayne_2

Loc tite 55

If it's the same stuff I got with my Buderus boiler its a thread like dental floss. You wind it into the threads of the male fitting and it swells up to help seal the fitting. I also go over it with teflon tape and blue block thread sealant. I've hhad very few leaks using this method. WW

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Constantin

I'm just following the manual...

... will double check though, just in case they meant 95 Nm instead of 95 lbf.

I do recall I had to buy a new torque wrench though, as the "digital" clicker model I used on the motorcycle was not manly enough to handle the higher torque requirements of my car (whereas it works fine at 85lbf for my wife's).

So far, none of the wheels have exploded. The bolts on my vehicle are pretty large though and have a large rounded integral washer to help distribute the load across a bigger area than the head of the bolt would by itself.

Rick Kelly_3

Loctite thread

I see from the posts that only Waco Wayne knows what the original question was asking about.

That LOCTITE sealing thread is meant to be used as-is dry with no additional tape or dope. My personal experience is that it makes for a low-confidence joint having had a few leaks when using it.

I primarily install Buderus boilers. The set of brass fittings supplied with their DHW tanks used to contain a couple of 1 1/4" and 1" VIEGA brass tees and a set of unusually knurled brass reducing bushings that were almost impossible to make leak free, especially with that LOCTITE thread. They have since quietly replaced those brass fittings with some more conventional brass reducing tees to eliminate a couple of the potential leak sites.

Joe@buderus

Buderus Indirect Tanks now have "NPT" thread nipples welded on the tank. Along with this change, the brass fittings supplied have changed and included is the LOCTITE 55 Pipe Sealing Cord. PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS PRINTED ON THE CONTAINER.

In my opinion this Loctite 55 is the space age "candle wicking". I have used it on Buderus equipment with excellent results (I have also used it in many other applications as a substitute for "teflon tape"). The only issue I saw is when the directions that are clearly printed on the container where not followed. When done as per directions, there was no leak!

steve gibbs_2

Locktite 55 is also the sealant of choice for many Viessmann installations.

marc

loctite

the dental floss ii think you are referring to is wonderfull stuff. we tried loctite 567? kinda like toothpaste. it works great for about 6mo. - 1 yr. maybe, then you have a sprinkler system. the floss works very similiar to hemp, but hemp tends to leak at first, then swell up and stop dripping. we only use loctite floss ( 55? )on every threaded fitting. we hate the callback for a leaking ftg. 1 yr. later. marc

Constantin

Yup, 130 Nm...

... or about 96 lbft. While the Sears bending beam model I have now does the trick, I do prefer the clicker variety. The torque requirements are yet another reason I worry about the theft-prevention bolts, they don't have as much material to grab onto as the regular 23mm hex-headed bolts.

Patchogue Phil_24

clicks

I prefer the audible click too. Those beam/bar types wobble too much for me. 96 lbs.... hope your wife doesn't have to try and change that tire! Is it aluminum rims?

ScottMP

Joe

Nice to have Buderus answering these questions here on the wall.

Thanks for the input.

Scott

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Constantin

Not quite that bad in this day and age...

... for one, her summer tires are run-flats. Her car didn't even come with a spare tire! I'm not sure what good that would do her in the wintertime (the winter set is conventional) but modern technology sure has made all of us a little more adventerous? I'm thinking of cell phones and the like.

Her wheel-bolt torque requirements are "only" 85lbft (Al summer and Steel winter rims) while mine are 11lbft higher. Interestingly enough, her owners manual did not state the torque setting one should use, I had to call the dealership. Also, the wheel bolts on her vehicle look about 1/2 the size of those on mine, yet her car has more hp... go figure.

Both of my sets (summer/winter) are Al alloy, which makes getting new tires mounted all the more fun. I'm pretty good at sanding and filling out gouges now, repainting and sealing them next.

Matt Undy

If you have clean and oiled threads and follow the torque specs, the nut should not loosen up without a thread locker. The tourqe spec is designed to put enough tension on the stud that it won't loosen under the loads it is subjected to under use. If you use anti-sieze coumpound on the threads you will actually overtighten the bolt at the specified torque because the coumpound provides more lubrication than the torque spec was developed under. Locktite won't hurt(until your trying to losen a lug nut with that 12" lug wrench certain manufactureres give you) but it isn't needed if the manufacturere's engineers did things right.

Matt

EJW

Wheel nuts

You must not have an Audi, there 95lbs. My Ford Super Duty is 140.

bob young

LAMPWICK

wow !!! sounds like the hi-tech guys have discovered " lampwick ". we have been using it in n.y.c. for about a hundred years now. works reel good.

Constantin

It's really not that bad...

... I have had to switch the rims twice so far (winter on, winter off) and have loosened the bolts always with the breaker bar included with the car kit (which isn't much of a breaker bar) before lifting the particular quadrant of the car.

I agree that under ideal conditions, properly tightened bolts will never release. Having read up on the vagaries of bolt tightening, torque allowances, etc. IIRC, I have to accept a 10-25% error in the torque application under ideal conditions (calibrated clicker wrench, temperature control, good lubing, excellent fit and finish, etc.).

Unless I switch my bolts to the hollow variety and measure strain while tightening up via ultrasound (some of the satellite work at ADL required that, IIRC) I'm not going to have a lot of control regarding hitting that specification. I presume the designers of the car knew full well that no normal garage would go to such lengths and hence allowed for at least 25% error.

Starting with the work I did on my bike, I've always used loctite "blue" threadlocker to secure bolts. After all, while watching a Harley riders bike disintegrate ahead of me on the Louden speedway had some educational value (avoidance manouvres followed by good-natured ribbing in the paddock), it would have been no fun to be hit by the bits and pieces falling off (like 1/3 of the front light assy) when speeds can reach 140MPH.

timo888

resurrecting an old thread...

...because the thread itself is timeless, even though the OP may have found his answer. You never know who may come along later. Since my question relates, it seems reasonable to tack it on.



My Buderus was installed in 2006. There is a reducing Tee (1x1x3/4). 1" end is attached to the nipple; 3/4" goes out horizontally to the OPV, and 1" points down to the DHW line. Is that the brass Tee Buderus would have supplied?



Loctite 55 Instructional Video

http://www.loctite55.co.uk/?FOLDERID=18065



I've bought a dielectric union. Any special precautions when removing this Tee, given the build-up of minerals around the fitting?

MIke_Jonas

What type?

I only know of two types of dialectric unions....



Those that leak.



Those that are about to leak.



I never use them.

Jean-David Beyer

Dielectric unions.

I am not a professional, but I did electrical engineering at one time. I read I should have dielectric unions at the boiler connections to my hot water heater. This did not seem to make sense because the unions would be bypassed by the copper tubing elsewhere in the system as well as other grounding. The water pipe that supplied the domestic water to the heater was the same that supplied makeup water to the boiler. So to avoid shorting out those dielectric unions, I would have had to put them in the domestic input and output to the water heater as well, but no one has ever suggested that.



Similarly, in my system with copper tubing, my circulators are all cast iron. And if I were to put a dielectric union on each side of those, I would have to disconnect the grounding of the circulator motors: probably a bad idea and possibly a violation of electrical code.



As far as I know, the only dielectric union in my whole house is the one on the output of my gas meter, supplied by the gas company, to keep me from using it as  a ground.

timo888

shorting out

Dielectric union was suggested by manufacturer tech-support, BTW.



Isn't the loss of metal due to the battery effect at its worst where the dissimilar metals abut, tapering off to nil with distance? Would jumpering the incoming cold water supply line and the outgoing DHW supply line at an appropriate distance from the tank, beyond the reach of the battery-effect, prevent the short you mentioned, if both incoming cold water and DHW supply lines are isolated from tank with dielectric unions?



I asked here recently about how the hot water tank gets grounded so attaching the anode to the tank would ground the anode, and whether dielectric unions had any bearing. The installers of my system did not run a new electrical line from the panel and the old one from decades ago had no ground wire. The green wires in the on/off switch box on top of the boiler are not connected to anything that goes back to the panel. Therefore, my circulator motor is not grounded, if I understand correctly. Would that explain why I got a shock after I removed a radiator and grabbed the supply line with one hand and the return with the other? And would this stray current in the hydronic line produce hydrogen gas and require frequent bleeding of the radiators?



Also, couldn't the lack of ground on the low-voltage devices send current into the tank, only worsening the battery effect?

timo888

leaky dielectric unions

A result of the washer perishing?

Jean-David Beyer

tapering off to nil with distance?

"Isn't the loss of metal due to the battery effect at its worst where the

dissimilar metals abut, tapering off to nil with distance?"



It has been a long time since I did any ee: say 40 years. So I may be off here. The current flow, which determines how much metal will be removed per unit time, depends on the current. The current is proportional to the voltage produced by the dissimilar metals and the resistance of the path between the elements. I do not know the voltage, buit it is unlikely to exceed a volt or two, and could be less. The resistance in the circuit (both the water and the copper tubing) is very low. Let us say the voltage is 1.0 volt and a source resistance of 100 ohms, to make the calculations easier, and the resistance of the copper tubing is 0.01 ohm per foot. Right across the union we would get a flow of 10 milliamperes. If we put in 10 feet of copper tubing, the resistance of the loop would go up to 100.1 ohms, so the current would drop to 9.99 milliamperes; not much of a reduction at all. Now I made up the numbers here, but they might well be somewhere nearly right. As a practical matter, it is my opinion that there is no range beyond which you are beyond the reach of the battery effect.



"Would

jumpering the incoming cold water supply line and the outgoing DHW

supply line at an appropriate distance from the tank, beyond the reach

of the battery-effect, prevent the short you mentioned, if both incoming

cold water and DHW supply lines are isolated from tank with dielectric

unions?"



Code around here requires that the incoming cold water and outgoing hot water from the water heater be bonded together, and mine is so bonded with #4 gauge wire. That is because you are not supposed to ground anything to a hot water pipe, but people do it. But the copper tube does go into the brass fittings of the domestic side of my indirect hot water heater with a stainless steel tank holding the domestic water and the outer tank of (I presume non-stainless) steel. Even if there were dielectric unions in and out of that tank, it would do no good because those fittings are brass. Once inside the tank, I do not know if it is all plastic or not. I know my old electric hot water switched to plastic pretty fast. The dip tube in my indirect is plastic.



On the boiler side, the hot water fittings are also brass, hooked to copper tubing. The manufacture of the boiler and the hot water heater (weil McLain) do not specify dielectric unions anywhere in the system. As far as I can tell, my W-M indirect is the same as the same size Triangle Tube indirect heaters. In the boiler loop, there is the aluminum heat exchanger in the boiler, threaded steel pipe on the supply and return at the boiler, cast iron circulator, copper tubing, brass valves, and a steel and stainless steel water heater. Plenty of chances for cell potential generation, and electrolysis of the components. I hope it all lasts another 28 years. I have lots of ball valves and purge valves in my system that make it easy to replace components. Now if W-M were to use copper instead of aluminum for the heat exchanger, that would reduce the voltage some. And I could use bronze circulators. I could have reduced the conductivity by using distilled water in it (distilled water is a poor electrical conductor). But I did not. I do not know if it would remain in distilled condition for very long anyhow. The boiler additive (Sentinal x-100) may make it conductive for all I know.

timo888

tapering off to nil with distance

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/pdf/galvanic_corrosion.pdf



I don't know the date of this article. Judging from the address (before the days of zipcodes), it is as old as the pipes in my house. Paragraph 2, page 2 relates to the distance issue I brought up.



If I understand it correctly, best practice would be to attach a steel "sacrificial" pipe [article says "suicidal" but the pipe would not be taking its own life] to the welded DWH steel supply nipple, so the nipple itself is not damaged by the galvanic effects it could/might suffer when connected directly to (nobler) brass.

Paul Fredricks_3

just to jump back a bit

To me, the picture just looks like the result of hundreds of heating cycles. I see this near hot water coils. I take the fittings apart and re-dope them, and all is OK. I don't remember ever seeing corrosion that I attributed to dielectric issues.



But, as usual, I could be wrong.

timo888

heating cycles

It's the reddish-colored stuff that got me concerned about the steel nipple corroding, either from dissimilar metals alone, or exacerbated by stray currents. That I got a shock when holding the hydronic pipes was worrisome. I realize the DHW is separate from the hydronic, but the indirect hot water tank is a hub where the two piping systems meet. I had our water tested and we have relatively low iron content. The water was "moderately hard" according to the lab. I thought the red stuff could be iron oxide. Are there other reddish minerals in the water?

scott markle_2

loctite 55

I'v had no leaks using this stuff, it's now supplied with Viessmann indirects, they used to provide hemp. I found the hemp really hard to wind onto the threads, but this loctite thread has a bit of tack to it. Sometimes it feels like it's bunching up and I'll start over, it's clean to work with. There does seem to be a bit of technique to applying it I think I'll watch the video!

scott markle_2

roughen the thread

learned something from the video, they want you to roughen the thread, I'v seen euro radiator valve nipples that had little cuts in the thread like this and wondered what it was about, anybody ever do this to male threads?



I do like the ability to reposition the joint by 45deg. without starting over.

Jean-David Beyer

I got a shock when holding the hydronic pipes was worrisome.

I would worry too. Better figure out the cause and fix it. If you do not have the required skills, better hire someone who does. Any metal pipe you have should be at ground potential, from which you should be unable to get a shock.



The stuff is almost certainly ac, so an ac voltmeter should be able to detect it, though it may not. If the meter says there is, then there is; if it says there is not, more sensitive testing is required.

Mark Eatherton

Is that a Buderus DHW tank?

If it is, they use a mild steel nipple, and it is glass coated, along with the steel tank, and I have seen some nipple failures. Especially in improper dissimilar metal contacts.



But I've also seen less failures with proper isolation (brass, NOT dielectric unions).



Your cold water line is an extension of the electrical system. If I were you, I'd get a sparky in there and figure out where the voltage is coming from, before someone gets hurt or worse...



ME

timo888

brass, not dieletric

OK. I see. Inadequate distance between copper and steel when dielectric union is used. But I may use a sacrificial steel nipple between the DWH supply nipple and the dielectric union:



Logalux mild steel nipple > standard union > sacrificial steel nipple > dielectric union



The sacrificial nipple provides additional important distance between the welded mild steel DHW supply nipple and the copper, and is readily removed if it should corrode because of its nearness to the copper.



A 4" dielectric nipple may provide a better solution:



DHW nipple > standard union -> 4" dielectric nipple -> brass Tee



http://mifab.thomasnet-navigator.com/Asset/mi-de.pdf

rlaggren

All the dialectric unions I have see

And taken apart were a dirty corroded mess which constricted flow; and that was before they leaked. If you want distance, put some brass in there on top of your extra iron nipple. You truly don't want a dialectric union on your system. They are a solution looking for and making a problem. Bad ju-ju.



Rufus

timo888

how about the dielectric nipple?

Would the dielectric nipple have better ju-ju? It offers greater distance (4") between the dissimilar metals than a two-part union with washer/separator does, where they're about half-inch apart, and the nipple also maintains electrical continuity.



I had someone who has seen a lot of these Buderus nipples take a look at it, and he said it was probably a slow seepage that sealed itself, and not to worry about it. He said it might make matters only worse to remove the brass tee in order to do anything with the nipple.



I suppose it would be possible to unthread the copper fittings and insert brass nipples into the brass Tee and connect the copper to the brass. That might be a good compromise solution--additional distance without messing with the nipple itself.