why no regulator

Aaron

Hi

A buddy of mine has a 2 family house with baseboard hot water. There are 2 boilers (don’t remember the brand) and 2 bellows expansion tanks. What is not installed is a check valve and regulator. I know how important a check valve is to avoid potable water contamination but why no regulator. He bought the house and the boilers are at street pressure (30+ psi). He has spent the winter with no problems and no popping of the pressure safeties . What gives? I thought the pressure had to be at 12psi or 12+height of water pressure standing to the 2nd floor

Thank You
Aaron

Ken_8

Something doesn't add up

If the boilers are "standard." why aren't the factory installed 30# safety reliefs blowing water all over?

The reason is because of a few possibilities.

1) The pressure reducing 'valve' IS there - you just didn't see it,

2) The pressure relief valves are the wrong ones and may blow up the boiler if they are "normal" variety, e.g., factory build to withstand 30# of pressure, or

3) City water pressure is only 12-20 # and cannot go any higher? (not likely).

With regard to the check i.e., backflow preventer...
These are a very recent phenomanen. For the first 75+ years of boiler installs, no BFP was used and with few exceptions - they were totally and completely safe from "cross contamination." Especially steam boilers where a positive stop was between the boiler and potable anyhow! Besides, for years, the pressure reducing valves had checks in them anyhow and nothing could go backwards through them anyhow!

IMHO, a BFP is a waste of money. Quite obviousy, no bacteria known to man can survice 190-220°F anyhow, and how many toxins could you find in a steel pipe with iron boiler and copper baseboard?

It is a brillaint solution to a problem that doesn't exist!

Are there exceptions? Sure. And people get killed all the time with seat belts on.

After 40 years in this biz we have never heard of anyone getting sick over cross contamination.

My point is you have a better chance of winning the lottery than ever even hearing of someone getting sick over cross contamination of household boiler water. Hell, we have it in our eyes and mouths all the time when stuff starts leaking or being drained.

But it does make great news stories when anything bizzare is printed.



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Tony Feldman

Backflow Protection

In this part of the world (Texas) backflow prevention is taken very seriously. A check valve is NOT and approved backflow prevention device.
The minimum required preventive device would be a double check valve assembly. And that is only allowed in boilers where no chemicals are added to treat the water. If ANY chemicals or additives are used an approved reduced presser principal (RPZ) must be installed.
I got my start in this trade working on residential units in Detroit, MI. And I know for a fact that a whole lot of chemicals are often times but into a system to keep from having to replace the boiler and or piping in the slab.
In the last 35 years I have seen numerous cases of illness caused be cross contamination (the worst due to an improperly installed water softener).
If you find that installing and maintaining backflow preventers to be a nuisance I would suggest taking the training necessary to become proficient in testing and repairing of them.

Tony Feldman

Backflow Protection

In this part of the world (Texas) backflow prevention is taken very seriously. A check valve is NOT and approved backflow prevention device.

The minimum required preventive device would be a double check valve assembly. And that is only allowed in boilers where no chemicals are added to treat the water. If ANY chemicals or additives are used an approved reduced pressure principal device (RPZ) must be installed.

I got my start in this trade working on residential units in Detroit, MI. And I know for a fact that a whole lot of chemicals are often times but into a system to keep from having to replace the boiler and or piping in the slab.

In the last 35 years I have seen numerous cases of illness caused be cross contamination (the worst due to an improperly installed water softener).

If you find that installing and maintaining backflow preventers to be a nuisance I would suggest taking the training necessary to become proficient in testing and repairing of them.


Tony

Tony Feldman

Backflow Protection

In this part of the world (Texas) backflow prevention is taken very seriously. A check valve is NOT and approved backflow prevention device.

The minimum required preventive device would be a double check valve assembly. And that is only allowed in boilers where no chemicals are added to treat the water. If ANY chemicals or additives are used an approved reduced pressure principal device (RPZ) must be installed.

I got my start in this trade working on residential units in Detroit, MI. And I know for a fact that a whole lot of chemicals are often times but into a system to keep from having to replace the boiler and or piping in the slab.

In the last 35 years I have seen numerous cases of illness caused be cross contamination (the worst due to an improperly installed water softener).

If you find that installing and maintaining backflow preventers to be a nuisance I would suggest taking the training necessary to become proficient in testing and repairing of them.


Tony

Tony Feldman

Backflow Protection

In this part of the world (Texas) backflow prevention is taken very seriously. A check valve is NOT and approved backflow prevention device.

The minimum required preventive device would be a double check valve assembly. And that is only allowed in boilers where no chemicals are added to treat the water. If ANY chemicals or additives are used an approved reduced pressure principal device (RPZ) must be installed.

I got my start in this trade working on residential units in Detroit, MI. And I know for a fact that a whole lot of chemicals are often times but into a system to keep from having to replace the boiler and or piping in the slab.

In the last 35 years I have seen numerous cases of illness caused be cross contamination (the worst due to an improperly installed water softener).

If you find that installing and maintaining backflow preventers to be a nuisance I would suggest taking the training necessary to become proficient in testing and repairing of them.


Tony

Aaron

pressure relief

Hi Again

Thank you for your response. I don’t believe the reg is hidden because the tridicator reads around 30# cold. The next time I am over there I will look closely at the pressure relief and the manufacturer and what nots.

As far as the lack of a check valve and backflow preventor. I have seen allot of old houses without one but understand the need for safety. I found a link on heatinghelp.com describing things that went bad.

http://www.treeo.ufl.edu/backflow/casehist.asp

Thanks again
Aaron

sootmonkey

backflow

I have seen antifreeze from the boiler backflow into the drinking water. I was at a customers house for an unrelated problem, or so I thought. The call was "No heat, I think I have air in the zones." The customer comes up to his vacation house and turns the water pump back on. He shuts the pump off and drains the pipes when he leaves. I say yep, you got air in the pipes. As I am bleding the air, he asked if I know anything about plumbing and why would his water be foamy and taste funny. Been happening the last few times that we came up. You can guess the rest.

kevin coppinger_4

well it sounds to ....

me that the water could be shut off to the boiler and a higher pressure relief valve installed (say 45psi)....I suppose the boiler pressure gauge could also be broken...wouldn't be the first time! It's hard to say unless, you can see the job.....kpc

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Aaron

water is on

when I first saw the setup I thought the valve was closed but it is not. I will try to look tomorow at the relief valve.

Aaron

Weezbo

i would like to add a word...to Ken,s synopsis...

here is a possibility also, i hate to think it...a Plug may be existing in the place of a relife valve!..........another wild guess would be there is a pressure regulator after the check with a built in pressure relife valve..i belive B&G still makes them,i like them though the devise is a bit spendy. the last one i installed was like a year and a half ago...............i install them in conjunction with the relife on the boiler..... the Baclflow preventor may indeed be after the check and prior to the combination fill pressure relife.there are a few other could be's too.

Ken_8

Yeah. I forgot the most obvious...

The system really doesn't need a PRV (pressure reducing valve)!

Since Dan has read to us the instructions of a few PRV manufacturers, we know they require the feed stop be turned OFF after purging and filling via the PRV.

The idea being that if the system is tight - as it is supposed to always be - the PRV will never be required to function after the final fill. Further, if a pipe does spring a leak and the PRV feeds water to make up for the leak - a flooded home may result. The manufacturer's cover their bu=tts from that possibility by suggesting the feed stop be left closed to protect from that calamity.

That being so, one wonders why we need a PRV in the first place! Maybe this installer was "enlightened"?

Filling the system to 12 (or whatever is needed) pounds, and then closing the feed valve is not a bad thing. There may be some merit in the PRV installation guide caveat.

I wouldn't do it that way, but there seems to be no compelling reason for a PRV if you read the fine print.

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Ken_8

Oh yeah. I forgot those

thingies. The so called "FillTrol" "packaged" expansion tank and PRV that are integrated.

That little hex nut fitting integrated into the Extrol tank brass casting IS a PRV.

Maybe that's what he has - and never saw one before? They look as much like a PRV as a sweet potato (;-o).

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Maine Ken

Some manufac instructions state to keep feed valve open after filling. Could be why they are also referred to as Automatic Feeders!!!!

Aaron

filltroll and finally some pics

Yes I have never seen a filltroll and apparently that is what’s here. The pressure relief valve on both boilers is 30#. The gage says 32# but the second floor boiler still reads 12# after it was drained so some baseboard could be moved. Is there still 10 feet of water or is the gage busted? All winter in NJ with the second floor reading over 32#? I was afraid to lift up the safeties today and dislodge any dirt that is sticking them closed (I was just their for pictures not to get water all over).
Thank You for all the great info.
Aaron

jbplumber

backflow prevention

Ken,
No offense, but just because you haven't heard of any cases does not mean they don't exist. When one takes their backflow prevention training they get a book which has a whole list of backflow cases. When, where, and how they happened. As you said, the odds are extremely low that there will be a problem. But the plumber's role is to prevent it completely. 100% is the goal. I think its worth a few bucks, even if we save one life. Its always a shame when people die needlessly.

bob young

COMPLETE NEW REPIPE JOB

THE GENT HIDING BEHIND THE DOOR LOOKS LIKE HE IS CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE. GET YOUR SAWZALL AND RIP OUT THAT ABORTION ,GET A BOOK ON PROPER CHIMNEY INSTALLATIONS AND GIVE IT ANOTHER SHOT.

Weezbo

Bob Is So right!

Dude lose the whole fricin mess before, someone .. is lost. there is nothing clean about it . not the venting not the gas not the water hydronics hey ! AND YOU Touched it LAST!...:)

Ken D.

Regulator

I am assuming by regulator ,you mean pressure reducing valve or automatic feed valve. Chances are the system is manually fed from a stop and waste or ball vave somewhere and there is no reducing valve. I see it all the time especially in older homes. This may be against local codes, but since when has that stopped any one? Regarding the picture of the relief valve, that blue cabinet reminds me of Thermo-Dynamics or possibly Blueray (That was made by Thermo-Dynamics).

Aaron

crown

just a crown boiler, see jpg