Biasi vs Typical Pin-Style

Radiant Wizard

Over the years I have sold both styles of boilers. Now that I have found a 3-pass that is less than a Weil, Crown, Burnham and competitively priced with a Peerless, Dunkirk and the some of the other "drop your pants" priced American Pin-Types boilers, I have come the conclusion that the Pin boiler is obsolete in my mind.

If I can offer a customer a boiler that has 3" plus of insulation around the cast, is low mass, (ie. the 4 Section weighs 307lbs holds 4.7 Gal of water) with a Riello Burner, lifetime warranty on the iron (Will give the customer a complete block plus $500.00 for labor guareented) has a stack temp of around 300 degrees I'd be a fool to sell anything else. Let's face it.

Most jobs are won and lost on price. Can anyone here tell me the difference between a Burnham and a Peerless, how about a Crown from a Utica or Dunkirk. The anwser is no. They all have Honeywell Controls, Becketts Burner, are Single Pass and one does not have an advantage over the other for the consumer. Yes I said consumer. I know that there are you out there that get your little kick backs from the manufactures or your distributer but to the consumer there is no difference. Wait, sorry there is one. I can drop my price. Why? You have to because you know inside that the product your installing is not different and you can't sell it. You have to drop the price.

This particular 3-Pass that I mention has a cost (for discussion purposes we are talking about a 4 Secion 110,000 BTUS) to the contractor for $1,300.000. When I talk 110,00 Btu's that mean you are getting 110,00 btu's out to the system. Not 110,00 Gross, 90 DOE, 82,00 net. I Can upfire of down fire. Can anyone tell me the average heat loss of a 3,000 ft house built today? Without getting your protractors and rulers out it's about 50,000 or less. I do have a 2-Section 3-pass that will put out 80,000 anyone intersted?

The reason I write this is that this particular -pass European Boiler MFG offered to sell this boiler to some of the American Companies but they all balked and now it's probably going to be there biggest competitor in the future. By the way, It's been in this country for 12 years. NO LEAKERS EVER. Can any of the others sat that.

Unknown

Ok, I'll bite

What is the combustion efficiency?

Noel

Slant/Fin Corporation

Maine Ken

If it is the Biasi, I have been getting combustion effic of 84-86%. I have many of them installed.

"Maine" Ken

Robert O'Connor_6

Well

lots of oil fired boilers get efficiencies in that range. We actually get a little better with the Crown CT and though I don't sell them the Sytem 2000 is above that lots of times.

Efficiencies are similar on lots of boilers. It's design and support I think you need to look at

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

Leaker

When you say that they never had a leaker ever does that mean you never got a leaker from them?

Regards

Robert

ME

Rich daplumber

plugged drain

has anybody thought abought a partialy plugged drain?
when large usage this symptom happens.

Maine Ken

Not sure if you are replying to my answer to the "what is the combustion effeciency?" question or not. I was just answering that part myself. I have many other boilers out there with effeciencies in the same range as well as some higher and lower. I have had excellent support from the Biasi rep at QHT, no problems whatsoever.

I personally prefer the 3-pass design over any of the one shot types.

"Maine" Ken

Robert O'Connor_3

In over 10 years

I have seen only one come back. It had a stray slug in one of the passages. Not always GG20 iron in that time, Biasi introduced the good iron to the Vega Design. Efficiencies? I'm not a burner guy, but 84% seems pretty low. Rated AFUE is between 85.7 - 86.9 across all B10 sizes. Most bang for the buck in my opinion. And the SG series is simply a superior return flame design.

Jed

Robert O'Connor_6

Well of course

Afue is rated at 140 degree water so thats the first drop in efficiecy when it hits the basement. My market doesn't allow me to design for 120 supply water.

Buderus uses that grey iron too and they have had leaks also.

I didn't see any pin style boilers at ISH a few years ago. I did see lots of three pass design and lots of funky wall hung condensing oil. So you can see where we are headed.

I don't have any problem in general with the pin style. With some specifically i have a few complaints. The pin boilers will be in the US for a long time because they are functional and efficient. Also I don't know of any euro boiler that comes with a coil. Coils right or wrong are very popular. Firedragon showed us a report from NY that shows that boilers with coils get about the same basic efficiency as boilers with indirects , So hmm

To me if it is well made then it becomes all about support and the wholesaler.

All the best

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_3

Well of Course

You go where the horse wants to lead ya!

Jed

Maine Ken

Conbustion effeciency can be the same with or w/out a coil but please don't tell me that a coil system is as "system effecient" as a cold start w/ indirect. Any boiler that has to maintain temperature 24/7 cannot possibly compare with one that only burns when it is needed!!!!! Since I changed to a cold start w/ indirect my fuel bill has become a mere fraction of what it was.

"Maine" Ken

Robert O'Connor_6

All I said was that Firedragon showed us a study

from NY and the efficiency of the two type systems was was very close.
I didn't do the study nor have I seen any other reports.

I will say that a tank has a lot less maintenace and they provide better hotwater.

External coils can be very efficient also.

I would be very intersted in any other scientific studies that you may be aware of

I'll try to chase down the study I spoke of.

Regards

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

Pretty much

sorry to say.

I do very little new construction so I give them what they want. Try to get them to upgrade to an indirect but its hard in my market to get much else .

Regards,

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

Ok heres the scoop

34% of energy on a tankless coil gets to the hot water

37% of energy on an indirect gets to the hot water

My oil use is about $800 its gonna take me a long time to get a payback at a rate of 3% "Maine" Ken perhaps you changed your boiler at the same time you changed your tank?

So like I said pretty close. This does not reflect the sales pitches I hear or annecdotal evidence

It has to be noted that boilers with coils are oversized to meet the deamnd of the coil.

Here is a link:

http://hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/97/970703.html

Dose anyone know of any other studdies?



Regards

Robert

ME

Unknown

That's a pretty blanket statement

The issue that I have with your blanket claim against pin type boilers is this: All of the residential STEAM boilers that I know of, that are 3 pass boilers, were made over 40 years ago. They are about 70% to 75% combustion efficient. They had bricks stuffed into them when they were converted to oil or gas to get the efficiencies up. They are no longer made. Steam boilers sold today are pin type.

When you come to a website such as this and discredit EVERY SINGLE STEAM BOILER sold to customers that come here for advice, you make it a little uncomfortable for steam technicians, homeowners, and manufacturers, alike, to play here, and to send customers here.

Your favorite boiler is no more efficient than several boilers of various types on the market now, that are on the edge of the physical limit to efficiency, and that is the threshold of condensing.

AFUE is a sales tool, combustion testing is the actual performance of the burner in that application. System efficiency makes up the rest of the facts, which can't be debated by only knowing the name of the boiler.

That leaves the insulation, which makes sure that all of the losses, as the off cycle occurs, are into the chimney, rather than into the building. Great.

On the jobs where insulation IS that important, you'll be able to tell it is so, by the amount of piping that has the same 3 inches of insulation on it.

Steam systems typically have 1" of fiberglass insulation on them, and when the demand and standards hint that more insulation on steam systems has a payback for the related price increase that makes sense, it will be really easy to build into boilers to equal the increased thickness of the insulation added to the rest of the buildings piping.

Have you ever seen 3" of insulation on the piping on a residential hot water heating system? Why, or why not? Why would the boiler have a different amount, if it does?

Noel

Slant/Fin Corporation

Maine Ken

I agree that during heating months the two types of systems are neck and neck. "MY" savings at "MY" house come during the non heating season. My boiler no longer has to maintain a minimum temp. When no one is home for days at a time my boiler hardly ever runs!!! To "ME" less buying of oil makes for a more effecient system.

I am only speaking of a hot water system and am making no commentary on steam. Please don't misunderstand my personnal preference to be a statement of which is a better system. Everything has its place!!!!

"Maine" Ken

Robert O'Connor_6

3 inches of insualtion

I always took that as more of a sales tool than a real money saver.

Most of the boilers with three inches have very little water content or iron content Look at the weights on the Biasi or Pensotti.

I think a large function of the insulation is for noise. Iron and water are insulators

Regards

Robert

ME

Radiant Wizard

Biasi

You are correct Biasi is the Boiler that I am talking about. It has AFUE's as high as 87 percent. The point of the post was a COMPETETIVE 3-Pass. I don't think the Freeport is competativley price Boiler though it is a nice boiler.

Radiant Wizard

NO

THEY'VE NEVER HAD A LEAKER IN THE US

ScottMP

Iron and water are insulators ??

Sooo a cast iron radiator is insulated ??

What about jacket loss, is that not relevant ?

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

Actually Bob...

All systems will run at 140 degrees - and do!

They operate at all temperatures from ambient to the limit setting. 75% of the time they run around 140° because the stat is satisfied by the time it gets there (like this spring e.g. here in NJ) as well as well over that in dead of winter when 140 will be the lowest temps during an off cycle.


A zillion other factors come into play but I'd bet you'd be amazed at how many boilers in NJ actually have a seasonal average water temperature of 140° or even less!

I support the AFUE standard wholeheartedly. Both for typical hot water systems and radiant as well.

All the whiners who lament the AFUE standard are the ones who think it unfare because they can't meet a number based on the standard.

keep in mind something many do not understand or even want to (for selfish reasons), the water temperature is at the outlet. Not the return. Also realize the boiler water temperature has little to do with the stack temperatures and condensing.

True, they are "related" but we have seen boilers with water temps at 200 and stack temps at 140 and also seen water temps at 140 and stack temps at 300+.

Just because a boiler runs with 140° water temps does NOT assure it will condense in the flue (or inside the boiler either!)

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Robert O'Connor_6

In My market

I am talking about boiler temp. In my market Hi limits have to be set at 200 or for the most part you'll be back for not enough heat.

You make some good points Ken


Regards

Robert

Maine

Robert O'Connor_6

Sound insulators

What I meant to convey is that the more iron and the more water in a boiler the the less amount of ambient noise .I also feel that one of the purposes of the three inches of insulation is for sound deadenning.

Radiantwizard is talking oil fired stuff here.

I think you 'd notice the noise faster than an increse in fuel consumption if you removed the insulation.

I also think the weak point in the Crown Freeport vs The Buderus is 1" vs 3' of insulation . So it does have a value to me.

A Biasi Boiler at 77.000 btu weighs in at 247 lbs and has 3.7 gallons of water 3 inch's of insulation

A Buderus Boiler at 74000 btu weighs in at 331lbs and hold 8.3 gallons of water it has three inches of insulation.

It's my opinion that the Biasi will have more ambient noise.

The only exceptions to this are direct vent and The System 2000 which is very quiet. Thats a different design all together but it has lots of kawooll board fireside which help absorb noise in addition to other design considderations.

When I sell a pin style boiler I try to get one that I can fire at the lower of the firing rates offered. This will have a better efficiency rating. Itwill also be quieter operation because of incresed iron and water capacity as compared to the next size down fired at max.


Regards,

Robert

ME

DaveGateway

Ambient noise?

I would think the burner and circulators would make far more noise they anything noticeable from the boiler. There has to be less stand by loss with a horizonal flue and the casting wrapped in the largest amount of insullation. While probably not reflected in an AFUE rating, I could see where a Scotch Marine designed boiler would work better in a warm start application for an indirect during non-heating season. Keeping the standby loss down should cut the number of cycles just keeping the boiler up to temp. The Biasi's low volume would allow cold starting since the smaller volume could come up to temp faster.

Robert O'Connor_6

Burner noise

What I was trying to get across was that the boiler if greater in mass and water volume will absorb more noise from the oil burner than a boiler of lesser mass and lesser water volume.

Regards'

Robert

ME

DaveGateway

Agreed

and a Scotch marine design is a true wet leg design that surrounds the flame. I still think most of the fire "roar" reverberates through the flue, which is a short distance from the burner head on a top flue design. The long exhaust passes of a 3 pass act as a muffler to deaden the roar.

Robert O'Connor_3

Robert

I'm confused. So what does hitting the basement have to do with Combustion Efficiency. It's a burner test, that's all. And the ratings are from 140-170 or 180. Isn't it just a burner steady state thing? System efficiency and boiler efficiency are a totally different thing.



ALSO? Who said anthing about ALSO? Biasi/Vega has NEVER had a leak. So, what's this ALSO business?

Coils? Well, they just don't save oil, Period.



Combustion Efficiency? Fine. What about saving money for
for YOUR CUSTOMERS? You know this.

It seems you have not had the pleasure of the support from Biasi, because you haven't tried it, so how can you judge?


Jed

Maine Ken

Sorry I missed this earlier. I have the exact same boiler as before. I discontinued the coil and piped in an indirect as a new zone. I will be changing to a 3-pass asap.

"Maine" Ken

Robert O'Connor_6

Robert O'Connor_6

Well

Jed you said you had a Bad Biasi so thats where i got that my mistake.

AS far as doing my customer justice it's realy not up to me I give them choices They decide what is best for them. Some want plain jane coils other want Buderus with indirect or Crown CT. If someone insisted on Biasi I would not have an issue with it. Giveing people choices is far from injust Jed!!

Efficiency again customers get to choose how much and what flavor they want. I respect my customers right to make their own choices with the full spectrum of information I give them. Nothing injust about that is there?


Actually I have met John Quincy and some of his crew . Nice guy I'm sure he tries hard. I never said anything bad about Biasi or him.

Jed you seem pretty animated and are yelling at me ( caps on) . You accuse me of not doing my customers justice . I am really not clear on and you haven't revealed what your involvement is with Biasi I am not likely to continue to debate with you.

Regards

Robert

Robert O'Connor_6

Well Jed you edited your post

Actually, it was a smart idea.

Be clear that I will not be idle if my reputation is attacked.

Regards

Robert