Idea for new boiler room plumbing system

PeterD

After constructing a very complex primary-secondary system in my boiler room (wood boiler with water tank heat storage swinging from 140 to 180 degF, propane backup boiler, DHW, HW panels & towel racks, two floors of radiant, and a swimming pool heat exchanger), it got me thinking about "a better way". I've seen the new crimp type copper connections. But what I have in mind is a modular, plastic-body approach. There would be modules for circulators, ball valves, tees, thermostatic valves, manifolds, etc. They would all get screwed to the wall, then joined with some kind of flexible couplers using o-ring seals. All able to withstand years of exposure to hot pressurized water of course. Though the materials cost might be higher than conventional, the labor savings would be immense.

Has this already been invented? What would the drawbacks be?

Regards,
Peter;
Mechanical Engineer

Unknown

leaks from expansion and contraction

and widespread availability of replacement parts during the night on service trucks.

hr

Plastic, or composites

have been tried for radiant manifolds, pump bodies, and a few other hydronic applications. It always comes down to that O ring seal! Also the ability of plastics to hold tolerances across a wide temperature range, seems to be the challange.

I'd love to see pictures of your mechanical piping and layout. I'm a fan of wood boilers and insulated buffer/ storage systems.

Here is a gasification, high efficiency wood burner I'm fixing to fire up this week for some testings, In the 90° weather of Missouri

It has some fairly unique Honeywell controls to help maintain a claimed 80% efficiency.

hot rod

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hr

Here is a cool control

that I've not seen before. It's common equipment on many of the Euro wood burner lists.

I hope to have one in my hands soon. I can think of a bunch of applications for this unit!

hot rod

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hydronicsmike

This boiler looks a lot like...

...a Windhager, an Austrian Wood Boiler Manufacturer. Who makes this one?

hr

This one

is built in the Czech republic. I also have info on one built in Poland, and another in Italy. Seems, due to emission requirements, the European wood burners are very clean.

Check out this control available as an option. VS weather responsive wood boiler control. Now I know where you tekmar guys come up with all the ideas

hot rod

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hydronicsmike

We come up with them...

...over here. Then some European Guy comes and takes it over there

To be correct and honest, we research all markets and use and develop what our customers in North America need and ask for. Simple as that.

Nice boiler, by the way. Who is the manufacturer?

doug_16

Hydronicsmike, r u the tekmar guy?

Can I trade my dual boiler control for the one that has two real P1 outputs since P/S piping has a separate 007 on each boiler? Huh, can I, can I,???

hydronicsmike

Sorry Doug...

...I wish I could. You know how it goes.

When ever you have an application question, please never hesitate to call the Rep or us for help. Thats what we do, we're there for you. You're right, the 264 would have had seperate Boiler Pump Outputs. Possibly, you have another job on hand that will have two boilers in reverse return? Here is another option...

leo g_13

> have been tried for radiant manifolds, pump

> bodies, and a few other hydronic applications.

> It always comes down to that O ring seal! Also

> the ability of plastics to hold tolerances across

> a wide temperature range, seems to be the

> challange.

>

> I'd love to see pictures of your

> mechanical piping and layout. I'm a fan of wood

> boilers and insulated buffer/ storage

> systems.

>

> Here is a gasification, high

> efficiency wood burner I'm fixing to fire up this

> week for some testings, In the 90° weather of

> Missouri

>

> It has some fairly unique

> Honeywell controls to help maintain a claimed 80%

> efficiency.

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

leo g_13

> have been tried for radiant manifolds, pump

> bodies, and a few other hydronic applications.

> It always comes down to that O ring seal! Also

> the ability of plastics to hold tolerances across

> a wide temperature range, seems to be the

> challange.

>

> I'd love to see pictures of your

> mechanical piping and layout. I'm a fan of wood

> boilers and insulated buffer/ storage

> systems.

>

> Here is a gasification, high

> efficiency wood burner I'm fixing to fire up this

> week for some testings, In the 90° weather of

> Missouri

>

> It has some fairly unique

> Honeywell controls to help maintain a claimed 80%

> efficiency.

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

leo g_13

> have been tried for radiant manifolds, pump

> bodies, and a few other hydronic applications.

> It always comes down to that O ring seal! Also

> the ability of plastics to hold tolerances across

> a wide temperature range, seems to be the

> challange.

>

> I'd love to see pictures of your

> mechanical piping and layout. I'm a fan of wood

> boilers and insulated buffer/ storage

> systems.

>

> Here is a gasification, high

> efficiency wood burner I'm fixing to fire up this

> week for some testings, In the 90° weather of

> Missouri

>

> It has some fairly unique

> Honeywell controls to help maintain a claimed 80%

> efficiency.

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

leo g_13

hey HR

have you ever heard of the wood boiler that was developed by MIT? an instructor i once had, had the BC rights. he now works for HD, and he can't/won't remember the brand name. they claimed that it burnt as clean as natural gas.

leo g

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Tom Simensen

modular heating system

Peter,

It sounds like we have been in the same smoke lodge. This is a system that I came up with a couple years ago that I am still trying to get someone to manufacture. These prototypes were cast out of brass but I think a good composite material would also work well if done properly.

Tom Simensen

hr

No, Leo

but I would like to www.woodheat.org is a Canadian website with a discussion list. They might know more.

hot rod

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PeterD

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Tom,

Yeah, we're definitely smoking from the same pipe. Except you've actually done something about it; I've only daydreamed. As pointed out by several posters above, there is a major question about whether any composite polymer could "take the heat". Cast iron or bronze is certainly another possibility. I'd like to learn more about your system; I'm guessing an offline email exchange is more appropriate than going on and on about it here? My email address is peterdATximetricsDOTcom.

One comment about your great looking system. I was thinking it would be convenient to be able to remove and replace a component without disturbing the rest of the system. Your o-ring tube connectors look like the components have to be separated to disconnect. I'm trying to think of a geometry that would allow "lift off" joining pieces, and would also allow for thermal expansion of the plastic components, which is considerable (1/32" per foot for 90 degF rise is not unusual for typical non-reinforced polymers).

I'm attaching the schematic for my system as a PDF. The only pictures I have are old and lousy quality; I'm going to take some new ones with a better digital camera. The wood boiler is a Tarm Solo Plus 40 MKII. It has worked very well for me for 3 years so far, burning about 3 1/2 cords of wood each year providing all our heat and hot water during our roughly 6 months of winter in northern Vermont. The other 6 months we only burn propane, though I typically use up the last of my wood supply each May to bring the pool up to temperature for the season (12,000 gallons = 1 Therm per degF =~ 30 lbs wood per degF).

Regards,
Peter

PeterD

Good point about the o-rings

Hot rod,

That's a nice looking wood boiler. When I looked into wood boilers, I never got beyond the Tarm. I probably should have done more research. It sounds like you're familiar with many European makers. The HS Tarm importer is just 1 1/2 hrs away from me, in Lyme NH, and provided help with the storage tank as well (made in PA, a company called "SSI" or something similar-- apparently very small outfit, whose tanks are generally used for storing off-peak electrical energy).

Thanks for your interest and feedback!

Regards,
Peter

PeterD

Mr. Tekmar I presume?

Hi Mike,

It sounds like you're with Tekmar. I used several of your controls in my system, as you can see in the schematic I attached further down this thread. I've been meaning to write up my application of the 356 control for pool heating. I have a heat exchanger (naturally), and the secondary circulator that takes hot water from the primary loop and sends it through the hot side of the exchanger is run off the 356 (making it run variable speed). There is a pair of TEE's and a bypass valve across the pool side of the heat exchanger (also customary) so only a portion of the pool water goes through the exchanger. The 356 "supply" temperature is sensed at the outlet of the exchanger on the pool side, AFTER it re-mixes with the bypass water (SN7 in my schematic). The 356 "outdoor" temperature is sensed at the return line from the pool (SN8 in my schematic). Then I set up the room target and other temperatures so that the outdoor reset functionality causes the supply temperature to gradually taper down to the desired setpoint as the pool return gradually warms up to the setpoint. This avoids overheating the pool due to the long lag time caused by its thermal mass. It works beautifully; you can monitor the "Target" temperature and see that it tends to stay the same number of degrees above the setpoint as the return water is below the setpoint. For example, if the pool ("room") setpoint is 80 degF, and the pool water is coming back at 78, then the target will be 82. You sacrifice a bit of heating speed for those last few degrees, but it avoids overshoot.

I'm an engineer and a total novice with hydronic heat, so I'm sure this approach is not particularly new or novel. But I thought you might want to publish an app note about it for the 356, as it seems to be a nifty use of that control.

Regards,
Peter

hydronicsmike

Nice!

Very nice!!

hydronicsmike

Sounds like a great...

...application. Did you know that you can run the 356 in Setpoint Mode without Outdoor Sensor?

Feel free to give me a call. 250-545-7749, Ext 214

hydronicsmike

Wouldn't a couple of...

...unions make it easier for you to take apart? I am sure he has a couple of those in his pipework.

And another nice application.