CO never sleeps

Mark Hunt

it's still deadly.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_061504_CO2eastside.html

I was going to put this in the "CO again" thread, but there are over 300 posts to it and this would have been a PITA to find.

I get three or four a day now, most having to do with boating incidents. Gas generators and gas grills come in second and third respectively.

PLEASE DO NOT USE YOUR GAS GRILL IN THE GARAGE!

Mark H

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Dan Peel

Today's local paper

Had this article.

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Mark Hunt

Thanks Dan


I saved that one for the archives.

Mark H

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Rudy

Another concern

Found out about this last week. Apparently propane and butane are not being stripped out of natural gas coming from wells like it used to be so there is alot of concern about the actual btu content being delivered to customers.

I've been dealing with this for years as I've had several customers with 'farm gas'. They get 'free' gas in exchange for allowing a well to be drilled on their property.

You can't just set up a burner by pressure, you have to do it based on the O2/CO reading - and it seems to vary throughout the year.

http://www.enn.com/news/2004-04-30/s_23344.asp

Rudy

Another concern

Found out about this last week while working with a gas utility group. Apparently propane and butane are not being stripped out of natural gas coming from wells like they used to be so there is alot of concern about the actual btu content being delivered to customers.

I've been dealing with this for years as I still have several customers with 'farm gas'. They get 'free' gas in exchange for allowing a well to be drilled on their property.

You can't just set up a burner like this by pressure, you have to do it based on the O2/CO reading - and it seems to vary throughout the year.

http://www.enn.com/news/2004-04-30/s_23344.asp

Mark Hunt

HEY RUDY!!!!


Where the heck you been????

Good to see your posts!

Mark H

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Darin Cook_3

Such a waste

To have people lose their lives like that. EVERY burner should be set up using O2, temp, and CO numbers. I would not want to have to live with myself knowing I put in a piece of equipment improperly set up that killed someone. TEST, TEST, TEST. It is a matter of life and death.

chuck shaw

It is a shame

that we still see these articles. However the real tragedy is the number of "professionals" who will read this post, shake their head in disbelief, and go out and install something without testing it. The number of times I have heard "I've been installing boilers for 20 years, and I have never had to test one yet." Makes me realize how much the education of the average "professional" is lacking. Getting the test equipment is easy and fairly cheep, learing how to use it, and what to do with the information takes a little longer. But what is the value of a human life, or the lost potential of a child. You never know, the boiler you didnt test today, may produce the CO that cripples the mind of the child, who had the potential to find the cure for cancer.

Keep up the hard work Mark, if every time you post one of these articles, one more person in the world starts to test, the word will get out!!!

As a footnote. The local supply house had a sale on UEI test equipment. In a 9 store chain, they sold 2 combustion analyzers. Both to me!!! How sad is that?

Chuck

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Constantin

I thought this was common...

... when we designed the water heater for AWH, it was with the understanding that all sorts of blends would have to pass muster.

IIRC, it's a AGA requirement because the local utilities have wide latitude in what they send down to their customers. Blends with propane, butane, and all sorts of things other than pure methane were/are possible and gas appliances are required not to malfunction under those circumstances.

Anybody have the regs handy? I'd also like to get a view from folks in the trade how often this sort of blending affects their city gas quality/consistency. Lastly, I wonder how many service issues are related to this sort of blending...

Constantin

Well, what kind of a remedy do you propose?

Don't get me wrong, I happen to think O₂, CO, and CO₂ testing should be mandatory. Unfortunately, sometimes safety standards are allegedly heavily compromised by industry pressure groups. For example, Mark Hunt, the folks at COExperts.com, etc. can tell you at length how the UL standard for residential CO detectors was/is deficient.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to training. If you get used to doing a CO test every time you install and service equipment, then it becomes second nature, just like wearing safety equipment for other hazardous activities. However, the hacks that prowl this industry

1. Are never going to do something as fancy as a CO test. Heck you'd be lucky if they adjust the equipment for altitude, ambient conditions, and/or fuel source!
2. Won't be around long enough to get sued out of existence when a homeowner is harmed. Some may even be sent to jail for manslaughter (at least in the UK, so thanks for the article link MH!)... yet AFAIK, this is not a common occurence in the US considering the many hack installs that more conscientious service people get to remedy later on.

Rudy

HEY MARK!!!

Just been 'lurkin' here lately.

Besides, between getting the 'estate' ready for two graduation parties and making a living sure eats up the time!!

Rudy

HEY MARK!!!

Just been 'lurkin' here lately.

Besides, between getting the 'estate' ready for two graduation parties and making a living sure eats up the time!!

Mark Hunt

The fix


Well Constantin, I can tell you that I have tested many CO alarms. I carry a can of CO with me. The number of "faulty" CO alarms is frightening.

I have spoken to George Kerr on several occassions(he is the founder of CO Experts).

The only CO alarm I offer is CO Experts.

The fix for this issue is getting the folks that install combustion appliances trained about combustion and venting.

Many believe that the job is finished when they flip the switch and the unit fires.

I say that this is when the MOST IMPORTANT part of the job begins.

Either the industry will police itself, or big brother will.

Either way, it's coming.

Mark H

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S Ebels

The only \"fix\"

That I can see on the horizon is self monitoring equipment. Burner manufacturers have the capability right now to install CO/CO2 sensors in their equipment. With what is available in the electronic field these days it would be a simple matter to program the burner to shut down when it detects levels that are outside the setup parameters. I know that Weishaupt has burners that monitor flue gases right now.

Of course this would only affect combustion appliances which are but one source for CO poisoning. The best defense is public awareness that CO is a deadly problem. Way to many people I talk to have an attitude that "it won't happen to me".

Constantin

Absolutely agree

I have been convinced by George's and your analysis regarding the inherent issues with the current UL standard for CO detectors. I also agree with you that the government will get involved unless the industry shows that it can police itself. The question is which agency will clamp down, on whom, and at what cost.

Considering how easy it is to sue in this country, it might be just a matter of time before a family with faulty CO detectors and a death, developmental problem, etc. due to the failure of said detector will punitively sue the CO detector industry into submission. In the end, this may achieve the same end as government oversight - just look at how the flammable vapor issue became so expensive that the entire water heater industry has made a switch to flammable-vapor resistant designs.

When I visited Bradford-White as part of my DoE work, I got into a heated discussion with a CPSC fellow... However, he agreed in the end that it is less efficient to force safety-related changes in the industry by engorging a small sub-set of contingency ambulance-chasers than by establishing sensible governmental safety standards in advance.

The trouble is, even if this country chose the latter approach (like the T

Matt Undy

Conflict of interest

Perhaps there is a way to filter the money to reduce the conflict of interest, perhaps paying into a fund instead of direct charge for testing services. Of course this would still be a problem for one off applications where some specialty fixture or device is custome made or some antique is restored/retrofited to modern standards then individualy certified.

I don't think the water heater flame arrestor systems make economic sense. They increase the cost significnatly on a tank that was designed to be disposable. Suddenly other more costly but more efficient and durable technologies make sense. My water heating needs are so small that even a 50% savings would only pay maybe $50/year. If the tankless demand type heater manufacrureres would distribute the power vent kits in the mass marketing channels and make the technical specs for both the heating capacity and power venting more readily avialable they could now be a viable option.

I'm not sure I see how liability for bad installs can be anything more than cival liability until the training and testing programs take more of an interest. If the certification didn't make sure you understood then it would be hard to show that somone's negligence was criminal.(I could go into another rant about how I have more than enough experiance with mechanics and metalworking to read about the tecchniques and train myself but the long apprenticeship would prevent me from ever geting a license in any trade and I think this is keeping a lot of the needed very technical people in other lines of work[I hope i have time to formulate a response to the inevitable responses to this statment]).

Opps, i seem to have gotten on a rant..my main point was that the UL could be objective if it were regulated properly, either though industry collabrations or government oversight. I'm thinking if the insurance industry took a strong role in oversight it could be regulated.

Dale

Public safety

I think the solution to reducing CO deaths is to keep pushing the public saftey message every chance you get and by requiring CO detectors in all new construction and with all remodels. Non portable heating equipment is a tiny percent of modern CO deaths. In my area all the recent CO deaths are " Death by Toyota" or some other brand of quiet idling car left running in an attached garage by accident or on purpose. I suppose a CO sensor on the car air intake could be required to shut the engine off, but should we all pay for it? Charcoal grills in the garage are more of a problem than regular gas grills, all grills have warnings not to use in inclosed spaces, people don't read them. Start with the kids, the scoutmaster makes a big deal of not bringing charcoal or gas lamps into a tent. News stories on CO deaths help, sadly so do CO lawsuits as that gets the attention of the insurance companies, kind of like wood burning heating and house fires.

Rudy

TV segment

I was up in Grand Rapids, Mi a month ago doing a segment for the local news.

They went out and purchased 8 CO alarms right off hardware store shelves.

Had me test all of them with CO calibration gas. Of the 8, two didn't respond to the gas (500ppm) within the time specified by UL.

We set those two inches away from the tailpipe of an SUV producing over 2000ppm, they never alarmed....

A couple of weeks ago, I did a training for a HVAC company in Northern Ohio. Real good bunch. They had cans of CO alarm test gas that they used to test homeowners alarms with. Just out of curiosity we filled up a bag with the test gas and pulled a sample with a fyrite pro. It read over 1,100 ppm.

Guess it shows whether an alarm is working at all or not, but doesn't let you know how much actual protection it is providing....

Constantin

More on conflict of interest...

You have put your finger on the button: If UL is not paid for its work by a specific manufacturer, then how does it decide what to test? Who will develop the testing protocols when industry is not involved? As you pointed out, it is not impossible to do these things... they do require additional steps though.

Constantin

But which CO detector to use?

According to Mark Hunt, the folks at COExperts, etc. there is only one brand that passes muster. Yet it cannot be UL certified because the UL test is designed to ignore low levels of CO, even if persistent low-level CO poisoning can lead to all sorts of issues. In my mind, several things have to happen.

• Heating appliances should be sealed and be required to draw air from the exterior, wherever practicable. For example, direct/power vent or outdoor gas water heaters should supplant the current crop of units.
• CO detectors should be installed in all homes. However, the UL standard should be changed to prevent long-term low-level poisoning as well as the laughable testing standard now in employ. Testing has to be ongoing, using random samples from the production lines, and over time to monitor the effect of aging on individual detector lines.
• For that matter, CO detectors should indicate the level of warning, low, med, and high (Tri-color LED, for example) to make life-or-death decisions a bit easier.
• Manufacturers whose detectors do not meet accepted safety standards should be forced to exchange all defective units in the field for free. This is a much better punishment than some sort of punitive tort settlement.
• On the education side, homeowners, and renters should receive a brochure when they move in detailing common dangers like generating CO if the kitchen stove is out of adjustment and how to react to such a warning.

Lastly, we cannot legislate away stupidity. If folks consciously ignore safety warnings and/or common sense and then get hurt, it is their fault, end of story. It simply should not be necessary to plaster products with what I consider common-sense safety warnings like "Careful, this coffee is hot!" or "Don't play with gasoline next to a water heater". Yet, I suppose that common sense is in the eye of the beholder!

So, until we change the judicial system in this country to loser pays all parties expenses, the only certainty we face is that our insurance rates are going to keep increasing faster than the rate of inflation.

Constantin

The part I don't get...

...is how CO detector companies continue to sell a product they must know does not work. They've been interviewed by all sorts of TV stations... surely someone must have noticed the bad press they're getting? The UL label is no defense, we covered that already!

So, how do these people sleep at night? For me it's a matter of either get it right or get out of the business. No ifs and buts. This is safety equipment that people's lives depends on.

For me, a CO detector is like an airbag in a car - essential for anyone who values their brain/body. Most of the time, you don't even notice the airbag bump in the steering wheel hub/dashboard. However, it better work when you need it.