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Shower Pans & Radiant?
Jamie_6
Member Posts: 710
How do you guys like to install radiant heat when you have a pan? I am currently working on a project where the intire master bath will be the shower pan. Do you guys use Quik Trak in this application, tubes below the pan, tubes over the pan?
Thanks,
Jamie
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Thanks,
Jamie
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Comments
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in the gypcrete with a couple aluminum plates.
thought of small zone specific for pan.0 -
Jamie
Put down your quick track and then do the pan. Neat and clean and does not effect the integrity of the pan.
Look at this photo. You can see the shower drain, we just hav'nt put down the copper pan yet.
Scott
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under
the pan in a gypcrete pour or using Quiktrak & then up and into the seat (if they build one into the shower).
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The correct way
to install a pan shower or bath floor is first install a clamping ring type drain.
Then a floor is floated and pitched to that drain.
Then a shower pan, lead, PVC, etc is installed over the sloped floor (usually a dry pack) and sealed to the shower drain WITHOUT PLUGGING THE WEEP HOLES!
In some areas inspectors will require a water test in the pan, over night. Then the test plug is pulled and ALL the water in the pan must drain to the shower drain location!
Then another dry pack layer, on top of the pan, for the tile to be thin set onto.
Now way would I use a wood product on top of a shower pan. the whole purpose of a pan is to collect water that seeps, or leaks through the tile, mainly the grout lines, and directs it to the drain.
Wood installed on top of a pan will be subjected to this water! Not good.
Personally I would use heat transfer plates under the subfloor and free up the tilesetter to correctly slope and install the pan.
Most illustrated plumbing code manuals show this pan/ slope detail as well as many tile installation guides.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right
hot rod
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hot rod
We've started using commercial floor drains for our shower drains; they have thick, cast strainers instead of the thin stamped ones and you can get the square strainers that makes the tilesetter happy.
The strainers are also adjustable (screw them up and down) and there are 4 screws instead of 2.
The only problem is, they cost 4 times as much as the regular E-Z test shower drains.
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HR ?
You would have a floor slopped towards the drain and Then a copper pan pitched towards the drain ?
In my area the copper pan is made square and flat to the floor ( after first installing a pan drain ), the tile man then sloops towards the drain with cement and sets his tile on top of that. I would think it would be hard to pitch a copper pan in four directions towards the drain. Hell, I've had a hard time finding a tin knocker who could just make it square.
Take a look at this clamping type drain. I find it Much better than the plastic style. Call Wolverine Brass for this product. Its all we use.
This method also allows us to install the climate panel radiant right under the pan.
Chowda
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Alan & Chowda
Yes you guys have much nicer drains! I really don't get into the plumbing much anymore, but I will keep those in mind. I think that nice Smith brand comes in a choice of grid finishes also.
Scott, around here plumbers use that vinyl or PVC pan material. It comes in 6 foot wide rolls and comforms to the sloped floor nicely.
I also see some tilesetters use this thick red "liquid pan" product instead of a actual pan. Not sure how the inspectors view that. But many inspectors are not up to speed on proper shower pan installation methods anyways.
I haven't seen lead or copper used in this area at all. Although I have torn out some old shower floors that had lead pans.
To be installed by code the floor really needs to slope to that drain, hense the weep holes around the clamping ring. without the slope you may, or will, have water lying in spots below the tile. I have to think this shortens the life of the tile job?
Seen plenty of plumbers use silicone or roof tar to seal the pan to the clamp ring, and completly plug the weep holes!
hot rod
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Dopey me!
I've never seen another way, than what Mr. Milne described. I guess I got the opportunity to start in the "underfloor heating bathroom" field a bit later than the regulars. We did have one leaker, but found that it was more of a product problem, than it was a design problem. (luckily, found before the ceiling below got damaged)
I'm in the H.R. camp, I'm no plumber. I feel I have more than enough to learn for the heating end....even after 19+ years.
Dan gave me a tip once, I believe it was a while ago....but I still believe it to be truth. "The day you stop learning, is the day they plant you in the ground, or scatter your ashes." Your choice. Chris0 -
I'm in a similar fix...
> Yes you guys have much nicer drains! I really
> don't get into the plumbing much anymore, but I
> will keep those in mind. I think that nice Smith
> brand comes in a choice of grid finishes
> also.
>
> Scott, around here plumbers use that
> vinyl or PVC pan material. It comes in 6 foot
> wide rolls and comforms to the sloped floor
> nicely.
>
> I also see some tilesetters use this
> thick red "liquid pan" product instead of a
> actual pan. Not sure how the inspectors view
> that. But many inspectors are not up to speed on
> proper shower pan installation methods
> anyways.
>
> I haven't seen lead or copper used
> in this area at all. Although I have torn out
> some old shower floors that had lead
> pans.
>
> To be installed by code the floor
> really needs to slope to that drain, hense the
> weep holes around the clamping ring. without the
> slope you may, or will, have water lying in spots
> below the tile. I have to think this shortens
> the life of the tile job?
>
> Seen plenty of
> plumbers use silicone or roof tar to seal the pan
> to the clamp ring, and completly plug the weep
> holes!
>
>
>
> hot rod
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
Shower pans
> Yes you guys have much nicer drains! I really
> don't get into the plumbing much anymore, but I
> will keep those in mind. I think that nice Smith
> brand comes in a choice of grid finishes
> also.
>
> Scott, around here plumbers use that
> vinyl or PVC pan material. It comes in 6 foot
> wide rolls and comforms to the sloped floor
> nicely.
>
> I also see some tilesetters use this
> thick red "liquid pan" product instead of a
> actual pan. Not sure how the inspectors view
> that. But many inspectors are not up to speed on
> proper shower pan installation methods
> anyways.
>
> I haven't seen lead or copper used
> in this area at all. Although I have torn out
> some old shower floors that had lead
> pans.
>
> To be installed by code the floor
> really needs to slope to that drain, hense the
> weep holes around the clamping ring. without the
> slope you may, or will, have water lying in spots
> below the tile. I have to think this shortens
> the life of the tile job?
>
> Seen plenty of
> plumbers use silicone or roof tar to seal the pan
> to the clamp ring, and completly plug the weep
> holes!
>
>
>
> hot rod
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
Shower pans and coincidence
Just today this same question appeared on one of my jobs. I'm just heating the floor and I'm not the plumber.
Whole bath drainage. About 10x10. Already figured for 1&1/2" overpour. Plumber wants to pan on subfloor and me run tubing above pan. Not a good idea says me. Radiant slab, then pan, then tile.
Tile install question: What is normal construction practice for tile above membrane type pan? Lead or copper is rarely used around here anymore and I'm not there to see how membrane jobs are done. I'm thinking gyp over tubing, pan, then mudset, thinset, or whatever. Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks a bunch....Tom0 -
I have seen
the pex installed inn the pan as you mentioned. It a weird detail running the pex up above the pan threshold level then turning into the framing or joist bay however. Still doesnt give you slope to the drain as code requires. don't be tempeted to cut through the pan to have the pex exist. you will never get a waterproof seal with this deatail. regardless how much silicone you gob on
Your call. You know the best and correct method
I'd really stay away from gyp in the pan, of course, and I'm not a fan of gyp in bath or potentially wet areas to begin with. Even under the pan, as you may still get condensation moisture.
I think the dry pack mix is 3 scoops coarse sand, 1 portland, (I think that's correct)and just enough water to keep it formed in a ball when you crush it into the palm or your hand. This provides an excellent base and scratch coat for a thin set tile application.
Dan Peel has posted pictures of this method, that he uses often for thin slab mud sets. Maybe search his name for the old posts, and more ideas.
hot rod
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Thanks hr
> the pex installed inn the pan as you mentioned.
> It a weird detail running the pex up above the
> pan threshold level then turning into the framing
> or joist bay however. Still doesnt give you
> slope to the drain as code requires. don't be
> tempeted to cut through the pan to have the pex
> exist. you will never get a waterproof seal with
> this deatail. regardless how much silicone you
> gob on
>
> Your call. You know the best and
> correct method
>
> I'd really stay away from
> gyp in the pan, of course, and I'm not a fan of
> gyp in bath or potentially wet areas to begin
> with. Even under the pan, as you may still get
> condensation moisture.
>
> I think the dry pack
> mix is 3 scoops coarse sand, 1 portland, (I think
> that's correct)and just enough water to keep it
> formed in a ball when you crush it into the palm
> or your hand. This provides an excellent base
> and scratch coat for a thin set tile
> application.
>
> Dan Peel has posted pictures of
> this method, that he uses often for thin slab mud
> sets. Maybe search his name for the old posts,
> and more ideas.
>
> hot rod
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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Not too wierd, Is it?
Hey Hot Rod, I don't see too many copper pans. This is our most used in the shower detail. Copper or other solid bases sound lovely but we have most often been faced with the rubber membrane running about 6" up the wall. Here's one picture. Dan
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Thanks hr
Jamie, and all of us, got a ton of info from this post and if you noticed his other post...tonight he don't care. Godspeed to the new arrival.0 -
the real mc coy
jay r. smith products are a pleasure to install. they are engineered like jewelry.0 -
Alright Dan!
I know you're a tried and true radiant technician and quite possibly a master plumber.
In your opinion, should the tubes be installed ABOVE the membrane and run up the walls? Or under the pan if floor height permits? I understand the radiant is going to perform either way, even though in my case,I'm heating this room, not just warming the floor.
Is tile bonding, cracking, etc. an issue? ALL tile setters around here want some cement board product under their installations. This CAN'T be feasible above a shower pan. Is mudset (or drypack..thanks hr) the ONLY accepted procedures for panned showers? Jamie and I are talking WHOLE ROOMS!
The invasion has begun.
0 -
If it's frame construction and you have access from underneath, put the heat there and avoid all of the headaches. Put some in one or two of the shower walls too - on a separate loop.0 -
Old Yankees
I guess we ar still in the olden days hear abouts !
Vinyl for pans has never really caught on here and copper is all thats used.
Twenty two years in the trade eighteen as a Master plumber and I have never seen a shower done with anything then a copper pan sitting on the sub floor.
I gotta go, I 've got a service call and I have to hook up the buggy.
Old Tyme Chowda
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The thing about vinyl
Actually it is a PVC I believe, is that it has the Code Approval stamped on it.
I sure the EPDM rubber roofing will work just as well, it's just that the inspector liked to see the UPC shield printed on the material, in my area.
Dan, how do they Wonder board or mud over the tubes where they come up out of the pan. Somewhere there must be a 1/2" or 5/8" buldge to cover over?
hot rod
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Slope/Drain
Take a look at this www.noblecompany.com/proslope.html
The ProSlope will give you the correct pitch and the picture gives the proper lay-up.0 -
Tube in the pan. This worked for me. (Forget about the copper in garden hose notation--that was for this install.)
Old house with a small bumpout over a new addition for part of the shower. Addition had filled in a corner and ends of existing corners weren't level with one another. I got really lucky and the shower floor itself had a natural slope from both ends to the drain location.
Have used lead once, but shower was big and decided to go "high tech" (or is that lazy) with EPDM. From a company called Resource Conservation Technology. REALLY good stuff. They also supply a German-made black silicon for sealing around drain saying no comparable US product.
The Grohe hardware in there is really nice but installation is finicky and you must be precise! I was skeptical that the ¾" thermostatic mixing valve could handle the flow of all those outlets simultaneously, but it does and with only a barely perceptible pressure drop. To the conservation minded: no--that's not the way I take a shower--I soap under the high head only, scrub my back with the brush, then do a really quick rise with all the body sprays.0 -
Is this the concept???
HR,
I learned how to do wet bed showers many years ago with lead. We use to pitch the floor under the pan using cedar shims and newspapers. Phew, it has been a while since I soldered a verticle 4# lead pan joint!
Anyway, the picture here shows how I have been suggesting to do shower floors for years. Brings back some old school.
You do have to skim coat the first wetbed with thin set (and allow it all to dry) BEFORE you put down the pan or the wet bed balls" like a cheap wool sweater during install.
What are your thoughts?
wheels0 -
Exactly
and if you use the liner it show there is no need to use silicone, caulk, etc. The vinyl is a good "gasket" material.
That's a good drawing, nice work! Thanks
hot rod
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Looks good Wheels
One question: What's a "web bed"? Is just another name for a tamped, quite dry, rich portland/sand mix?0 -
wheels has it right
I'm not a plumber or a radiant tech but After doing months of research for my radiant shower wheels has it right. Tubes under the membrane, never though it.You can go to the "Johm Bridge"shower forum for more info,,,,,0 -
In reality
showers get installed in many different ways. I suspect they all drain water down and out, in or at the end
It's the long term performance that will show the correct installation from the "wing its" Most installers have no idea what is going on under that tile floor once they pull out of the driveway!
I have tested and recieved a master plumbing license under 3 different codes now. All show, in their code books, the detail that Wheels or Drew posted. As do the manufactures of drains and shower pan products.
I thought about pex lying in water above the pan. Seems to me you are subjecting that pex to a life of service in chlorinated water on the outside as well as the inside, as we all know water travels through the grout to the pan.
I'm thinking this is not a good way to do a shower/ radiant/ pan installation. Might as well leave the pan out and let the water travel through the slab or subfloor below
Another option would to buy preformed shower bases and just tile the walls down to it! Many acrylic and manufactures stone bases are available with the pitch formed into them. A wide range of sizes and shapes, neo angles, etc. Some will custom build to your dimensions.
Then the whole pan installation goes away, as does the installation of the radiant tube. A cultured marble shower base installed on a radiant concrete slab works great. I have one in my shop done that way. The heat travels from the slab into the base just fine. I'll bet the same would be the case for a wood subfloor with tube and plates below.
hot rod
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wet bed?
Mike,
I', not a tile guy (I have always left this mix to the tile guys) BUT yes I think you are correct. I have seen your description and also the following description: "mud-bed for your hydronic floor: use a mortar approximately 1 1/2" to 2 " in thickness with a ratio of 4:1 to 5:1 sand to cement mixture."
Also, I left out the "dreaded wire diamond mesh" on the picture and the "paper" (tar or pink).
Please note that I would not use gypcrete in a shower, it breaks down (back to powder) under constant moisture. Try this trick, take a piece of dried gypcrete and a piece of dried mortar/cement. Put both in seperate glasses of water and allow to stand for a few days. Stir them..... the gypcrete glass will be gray matter (mortar will not break down)
wheels0 -
Yea, "wet". Wrote that from a different computer and couldn't edit the typo. I usually hear it called a "mud job" and [I think] a "dry bed"--figured that's what you were talking about.
Regarding the "dreaded wire diamond mesh": I've torn out a number of mud jobs of various age (due to failure or complete remodeling). I don't always find the wire reinforcement and there doesn't seem to be a clear-cut distinction between failure with or without the reinforcement. Nice thick beds like in showers (even tore out one that was about 3'x6') don't [seem] to crack without the wire. Thinner, larger beds [seem] to crack both with and without the reinforcement. The thick, big beds [seem] to fail due to inadequate structure to support the massive weight.
I didn't use wire mesh in the bed posted in the photos--hope it doesn't come back to haunt me... It has some serious structural support however.0 -
Thank you Steve I appreciate the drawing. ( a picture is worth a thousand words)
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no wire
Mike,
No wire should be used inside the pan! Ouch!
wheels0 -
barrier free shower
The floor in question will have 3" of urethane on the deck covered with 2" of concrete with 1/2" radiant tubes. The concrete in the house will be stained and become the final finish surface. Any thoughts on the detail for a shower that is flush with the bathroom floor for wheelchair access?0 -
I did a barrier free
shower in my inlaws home. My tilesetter still used a pan, and ran it out a foot beyond the edge of the shower wall.
The key is the pitch of the floor to the drain, regardless that it is curb free on one side, to a center drain.
Unless the drain plugs and you flood the entire room
Won't matter where the pan ends if that happens.
Make sure you use a 2" drain and trap and vent it correctly. Large flow shower heads or body showers willl really overpower a 1-1/2" drain, and even some 2" if the grates are real restrictive.
hot rod
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This discussion has been closed.
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