I'm ticked off!! I'm jealous............

S Ebels

Why is this stuff not here!!???????

I have jobs right NOW that are crying out for this equipment.

A small institutional building that would be an ideal match for a Vitocrossal 300 in the 142KW size.

A very energy efficient home with health and environmentally consious homeowners that would LOVE to own a Vitores 343 heat pump with the built-in DHW tank and HRV.

A couple heat pump jobs that I would just as soon use a Vitocal 350 for as Climate Master or Carrier.

WHAT IS UP WITH THAT???

I can't even get a chassis burner for a VB2-63 until August!!!! How long has that boiler been out on the market?
10+ years??

I won't even get into the commercial stuff....Vitomax, Vitoplex............ AAAAAAAAAAAARRRrrrggghhhhh!!!!!

IS there anyone from Viessmann listening???


This rant is now complete and I can go mow my 3 acre lawn.

Ken_8

Just a wild idea...

Perhaps you should try using equipment made by North Americans, for North Americans and avoid the 3,000 mile journey, outrageous shipping costs, poor dollar to euro ratios, lack of parts and support and euro-factory unionism that is obscenely inefficient?

Never mind.

Stick to lawn care. The cold beer at the end of the cutting is worth its weight in gold.

Say what?

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S Ebels

Show me

An American manufacturer that has the same product quality, the same system technology, the same system integration, the same....... just the same stuff period. I'll be first in line.

The sad fact is, it's just not there at the cutting edge like Viessmann is. Lot's of good stuff from Burnham, W/M, HTP and the rest but it's just not at the same level as the Silver or Blue guys from Duetschland.

You can argue that all you want but none of my US product reps have shown me different or given me a reason to think otherwise.

All of this is said with absolutely no malice whatsoever.

The yard is done, time to go help the son-in-law with his new house.

Constantin

My guess: Product Litigation, Quality, and Support Issues

The reason that a lot of medical products are developed in the US but tested first in the EU and other countries is simple: Product Liability. Once "the bugs" have been ironed out, it may be safe to introduce a product to the US market. Even so, any product introduction to the US market is a game of Russian roullette, there are simply too many contingency lawyers looking for deep pockets to sue.

As for the more esoteric Viessmann lines you mention, I suspect it's also a market penetration issue. As high-end as Viessmann is, I doubt that their market share approaches even 1% of sales in the US. As such, how big a scope would you want to offer, considering the very real cost on educating those that represent, sell, and install these products. Then roll in liability once more, i.e. the ability to find some truly frightening people in this country who claim they know how to install sophisticated heating and cooling equipment.... you know the rest.

As to "buy American" comment by Ken, we ought to let the market decide what wares are sold in this country. Viessmann fills a valuable niche at the high-end of the market and they serve as a constant reminder to the US industry that it is possible to produce products of very high quality and to get paid for it. Thus, I imagine that the presence of Viessmann probably led to improving quality, efficiency, etc. in US product offerings, just look at the Opus from Burnham as an example.

Regarding the Opus, did it ever strike you as odd that the brand is practically not associated with the parent? Look through the site... the references are hidden in the small-type. Clearly, someone is doing a branding excercise here, trying to differentiate the super-premium Opus from the more "pedestrian" Burnham offerings, much like Mercedes-Benz revived the Maybach name for its limosine line.

Speaking of cars, how many of us drive cars made by foreign companies? Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the quality improvements that trickled through at the big three are not directly correlated to the bar being raised by the foreign competition?

If a Ford Taurus was equivalent to a Camry, they could sell it for thousands more than they do. Yet consumer reports, resale values, and initial purchase prices clearly show most US cars at a disadvantage. Even if the big three managed to raise quality to Japanese levels, it would take years for consumers to overcome their prejudices just as it tooks years (and an oil shortage) for US consumers to associate Japanese-made cars with quality, reliability, and fuel economy.

Coming back to Viessmann, I'd be surprised if no-one was listening, yet I would perfectly understand why they elect not to muddy the waters with additional product that has the very real risk of causing them (and their image) a lot of trouble. Once the US market share increases (or the alleged US distributorship's franchisee license runs out) things might change. In the meantime, best of luck with the son-in-law.

Ken_8

Constantine,

For a guy who seems as well read as you are, I'm amazed at your fundamental lack of understanding of capitalism, free enterprise, and socio-economic dynamics as well as political realities in general - and more specifically to this country.

May I be so bold as to inquire what your ethnic persuasion might be - or what land you were born in?

Me thinks your observations are perhaps biased by a completely different view point than the one I am most familiar with.

Just curius. Please share your educational experience as well. It's always a plus to "know" who your writing to.



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Warmfoot

Hmmmm?

I think Constantine was right on the money! I did not see any lack of understanding of any of the things you mentioned above. What I have read of Constantine's previous posts regarding his education, ethnicity or what country he was born in is irrevelent. I am not trying to start anything here, but...I felt that the first part of your post was unneeded!!!

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC

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S Ebels

Constantin

You're probably, sadly, correct on the installer part of the issue and also the original importer of Viessmann products. Very likely there are a lot of land mines yet to be "dug up" before the path is entirely clear, so to speak. The liability side of the coin is enough to make anyone thoroughly examine their reasons for doing business in the good ole' USA.

If Viessmann's market share is only 1% then the company is taking some major losses here to get established. There is no way that they can provide the level of competent service, have the facilities they do and build the infrastructure they have here in North America and not be shelling out some major bucks. If it's done with 1% market share then somebody back home in Germany is awefully committed to being here.

There are likely practical issues also, such as voltage and 50 vs. 60 cycle current. (Metric electricity?)

I just get frustrated because I'm the type of person who enjoys selling. I enjoy talking about a product with a customer regarding specific benefits and long term value. Give me some tangible features and tweaky techno stuff to yak about and I'll give a customer all they can stand and then some. I see so much waste in this country it's pathetic. New homes constructed with heat loss numbers at 25 to 30 btu's per square foot........... It should be a third of that. It can be right now. It's not rocket science. The way I see it, our standards for energy use are 20 years behind where they should be and could be.

I could go on but, I'm sure I'm not telling anything you don't already know.

Had a good time at the son-in-laws place. His dad, brother, my son and a couple of his friends were there. We were setting the beams and floor joists on the basement walls. Got to use my new Kubota to lift the beams into place. (there are no tractors under 75 HP made in the US anymore BTW) Drank iced tea with lemon in the shade when we were done and talked as only a family can talk. Life is good.

PS: Don't mind Ken. He get's a little prickly on some subjects but I appreciate him and like him. You never have to wonder where he stands on an issue, he'll tell you. He's a very sharp businessman, way more than I'll ever be. You should come to a Wetstock and meet him and all the rest of us sometime.

Constantin

Do a search, Ken

Mark Eatherton asked the same question in the past, though with a lot less apparent prejudice. In the meantime, how about debating the issues I raised rather than starting a speculation game about my "ethnic persuasion" or some other nonsense not related to the topic at hand? Considering your intelligent answers to other questions, I know you can do better.

I developed products across several industries in the USA. In my line of work manufacturers also tell me about their post-sale conundrums, where gross stupidity on the part of the user can be turned into a contingency-lawyer windfall. And as a further example, Jacques Nasser of Ford had the same views about the US auto industry as I do when he visited my alma mater (INSEAD). But what would he know, he was just the former CEO of Ford.

If your experience developing products or running a manufacturing business in the US is different, I'd like to get your views. Furthermore, if you happen to have a better understanding of Viessmann's US marketing strategy, that would be even more interesting. Cheers!

Constantin

Don't Dispair Just Yet!

There are plenty of good reasons to do business in the USA. However, the risks and the rewards have to be balanced. Let's take another premium-product manufacturer in a different niche as an example.

Apple computer has at this point 2-3% market share in the US, lower elsewhere. Yet it is a relatively healthy company, despite an onslaught of commodity and premium products. Apple has to keep innovating to stay ahead of the competition, to differentiate itself and hence justify its (slight) price premium. As features are added to Windows, Linux, Apple PCs, all computer users benefit... competition is good for innovation and the net beneficiaries tend to be the end users.

Similarly, you will have leaders and followers in the heating industry. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that it was EU companies which were first to bring condensing heating appliances to market, first to standardize outdoor reset, first to market commercial radiant cooling technology, etc. It's not that the folks in the EU are smarter than the ones working in US labs, it's just that low energy prices over here simply did not make market forces focus on finding more efficient means of heating and cooling places.

Ditto on insulation, better usage of natural resources (i.e. smaller "footprints") etc. Average home sizes in the US have gone up 25% since 1970, and the McMansion trend hasn't ended just yet.

Now, I grabbed the 1% market share number out of plain air. But let's run the numbers for a moment. There are ~100M households in the US. Let's say heating appliances last 20 years and that there are 1.5 homes for every household (to account for lodges and other vacation spots). So 100M/20x1.5=7.5M heating appliances needed per year.

If Viessmann had 1% of that market, that's 75k units per year. Assuming $3,000 in revenue to Viessmann per install, their gross turnover would be something around 225M USD. ...and yes, I am not accounting for the mix of air-based vs. water-based systems. However, even if we reduce the figures by another 50%, that's still plenty of dough to justify setting up distribution, etc. over here.

Voltages and whatnot are a "peanuts" problem to solve. Taking another page from the Apple example, their laptops have always had universal power supplies. Their Desktops did also, except for a period in the mid-90's where Apple cheaped out and you had make the switch manually. However, building something electrically "universal" is indeed possible, and at lower production numbers it may even make economic sense since it takes yet another "localization" feature out of the mix.

On the other hand, local rules and regulations may make the introduction of some wares cost prohibitive. Whether it's liability concerns in the United States, or some of the more protectionist "safety" requirements (also known as non-tarriff barriers to entry), human ingenuity at protecting home markets knows few bounds. Market regulations unrelated to appliance construction may also prevent success, such as the high sulfur allowances in US fuel oil.

Furthermore, I hear where you come from regarding the use of new technology... we are cut from the same stone in that regard, hence my questions regarding oil modulation and the like. Ken thinks that modulating oil burners is fixing a problem that doesn't exist, Firedragon (IIRC) claims his low-hi-low unit has saved him 15%. Does a 15% fuel effiency improvement warrant the extra expense of a more efficient boiler? I won't claim to know the answer until I get my first oil bill...

Similarly, when we ran the numbers for the AC/HP DoE rulemaking, it was clear that folks in the northeast would have pretty much an impossible time of economically justifying the increased cost of high-SEER air conditioning systems. Yet, some homeowners buy high-SEER units for other reasons, such as quiet operation, 410A, or for use with multiple zones. Like the Maytag Neptune line of washers, higher efficiency is a nice feature to have but the purchase is sometimes really driven by other factors.

Unless the government puts out a roadmap it has to stick to in terms of energy pricing, the market will not react. When the day comes that gasoline prices hit $6 a gallon, I assure you that commuters will think harder about the size of their car, urban sprawl, and other by-products of cheap transportation. Similarly, building more efficient homes and fitting them with better heating systems is simply a matter of cost. Note the short-lived but intense period of energy scrutiny after the last oil crisis...

Europeans tend to require higher standards not only because their energy prices are higher, but also because they also do not move as much (and hence can take better advantage of a premium built-in product). Another example of the invisible hand of the market at work. It would be no different in the US under similar circumstances.

Anyway, it's late, I got to get to bed. I'm glad you had a good time with your son-in-law... our project is now reaching the point where the extant portion of the house may be dropped back down on the new foundation within a week or two (currently, it's floating 5' above). I wish I could get heat losses as low as 10BTU/sq ft. Even closed-cell polyurethane in the historic 4" walls would not do the trick...

Mi39ke_2

D-List

Hey Steve,

I know the feeling. Besides venting publicly, drop your concerns to the Viessmann Discussion List (it looks like you are a member). We know for a fact that your emails will go directly to various folks at Viessmann, as well as other partners.

Not everyone in the world tunes into the Wall. You just might find a Rep that has some extra stock laying about! I know of one distributor in Wisconsin that was selling all the orange equipment at huge discounts. I will look at their list and see if they still have anything.

Best,

Michael Ward

Ken_8

Prejudice?

Connie,

My asking your ethnic persuasion was merely an attempt to see what culture you may embrace. That would explain much of why your posts are just a tad "off center."

If you choose to not reveal that information, that's fine.

But do me a favor, don't ever imply there is some racist or immoral basis for the question I asked.

It was an attempt to determine where you were exposed to some of the unconventional comments you have espoused of late.

You knew it had nothing to do with you personally and was simply a question you apparently want to make an "issue" of. This, in and of itself explains a lot and I really don't like the suggestion of your post that somehow the question was more than what it really was.

If you lighten up just a tad, I may just buy you a beer when next we meet (Wetstock IV?)

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Paul Pollets

Wise Words...

Good points, Constantin. I understand Steve's frustration, as perhaps 20-40% of the product lines are available to the US market. The reasons we don't get ALL of the good stuff is: market share is small in the N.America and export requires significant changes due to metric and voltage conversions; hesitancy of the marketplace to spend more upfront and reduce life cycle costs; Technical and design expertise is limited in N.America, where 92% of equipment uses forced air. The Euro's do extensive market research and they do listen to the contractors. It takes several years, even 3-6 years, for approvals, changes and "de-bugging" when the decision is made to export. Nothing happens overnight. As US market share increases, and higher fuel costs make initial equipment costs less daunting, we'll see 'new' product.

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Paul Pollets

Ken

You're WAY off-base with this comment.

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Constantin

So I'm off-center?

I suppose that is all in the eye of the beholder. Your reply to my post starts off by labeling me as ignorant in all things capitalist, free enterprise, etc... and I am supposed to like this?

I don't even want to get into what followed seeing that my experience, knowledge, etc., not ethnic persuasion ought to be of of relevance to this topic. As if my ethnic religious/belief system is relevant to this topic... (and yes, I edited this paragraph once I researched persuasion some more).

Ken, I don't want to make a big deal out of your reply and I'd much rather look forward to that beer at Wetstock. In the meantime, why don't you tell me why my speculations on Viessmanns' US market-entry strategy are faulty? That would be far more interesting. It's not like I spent a lot of time researching the US heating appliance market. Under such conditions there are plenty of opportunities to be wrong...

Constantin

Interesting

I had no idea that the US market would be that skewed towards scorched-air heating appliances. Naturally, that has a tendency to reduce the market opportunity for water-based heating systems somewhat.

So let's assume that Viessmann captures just 1% of the Wet market. Going through the above permutations once more, that's 6,000 units per annum for a turnover of about 18M USD. Assuming a standard 20% SGA rate, that leaves about 3.6M USD per annum to pay for US employees and operations. Still worth the market-entry risk, IMHO, yet clearly not enough to host vast training seminars, nor enough to offer a wide scope of product.

Furthermore, it's not like Viessmann is not a very international company... they have operations in far-flung places like China, Turkey, and pretty much all of Europe. Considering the relative size and wealth of the Turkish vs. US market, it's pretty amusing to find a wider scope of Viessmann product being on offer there than in the USA - even if most of the EU uses hydronics to heat its homes.

I have heard rumors that the US marketing organization is responsible in part of the high price of Viessmann appliances. As I am not familiar with Viessmann prices in Euro-land, it's hard to say if this is actually the case. Usually, market leaders who dominate one area of the world and which have expansionist ambitions will sell their wares at lower prices in markets they are trying to penetrate, not the other way around.

For example, Peugeot is one of the dominant car manufacturers in France. For several years, their cars were cheaper to buy in Belgium than in France as Peugeot wrestled with other EU-based manufacturers for the (tiny!) Belgian market.

After a while, French consumers started to drive to Belgium to buy their cars there instead of France. Peugeot France tried to stop that by attempting to deny warranty coverage for foreign-bought Peugeots in France. The European court shut that practice down... to the benefit of French consumers.

Price discovery is made all the easier by the internet. Companies have thus had to re-tool their marketing and distribution practices accordingly. Unfortunately, as Viessmann appears to be a typical Mittelstand company, there are no public records to peruse. On the other hand, considering they claim to own a private jet makes me think they have quite a few extra $$$ lying around.

jerry scharf_2

I'd love to hear from the manuacturers

Steve,

I tend not to think it's as much about fear of litigation. That looms over you for being in business in the US, and it's not clear to me that a broader line makes that worse. This is just my opinion.

There are a large number of costs to incur in introducing any product to the US. First is all the certifications needed. You have performance tests, safety tests, etc. Then you have the cost of documentation and marketing material, since the US needs a good bit of change from the UK version. You have to not only stock the units, but all the parts. Distributors don't like to have to carry parts for low volume products, but contractors demand it. You have to train the distributors to be able to answer questions and help design systems with the new poducts.

Finally, in the commercial arena, I have seen even less desire to part with money that in the residential area. I've had people tell me that 4 year payback is too slow. I'm amazed how much people would rather complain about fuel costs yet refuse to invest in the changes to get them out of the problem. In Europe, many building managers and owners are serious about "green" issues. Rare is the American commercial building where any financial factoring of the environmental impact is done.

This is not a statement to say that every person in any group labelled here acts the way I am saying. I believe the marketing information does back these up as industry wide problems for introducing new products.

I'm sure both the American and European manufacturers see this. I'm thinking of the comments Noel made about a condensing steamer, many of the same problems.

jerry

Constantin

Good Points!

Service and support can be very expensive, particularly when it comes to getting distributors to carry spare parts and the like. Since "no heat" conditions are a bit of a crisis, it's probably best to have quite a few spare parts spread across the USA, rather than one distribution center attached to a shipping company.

For example, you can order computer equipment from a particular computer shop until 2AM and still get it the next day. How did they do it? By partnering with Airborne Express, which purchased a former SAC air base in Kansas or whatnot. There, Airborne maintains vast warehouses in the former plane shelters for distributors. Hence the 2AM cutoff... the planes leave around 3 AM, IIRC. Imagine that, a shop whose only staff is in the order-taking, trouble-shooting, and returns business. Everything else can be outsourced...

More and more shipping companies are offering full logistics packages like this, allowing them to add more value, earn more money, and deliver goods more reliably. The internet has made it a lot easier to create a viable business selling physical and non-physical goods. Many companies have hence decided that distribution is not one of their core businesses, i.e. one they can happily outsource if it makes more economic sense.

I found AGA testing requirements in the USA to be OK. Typically, the US tests are well-described enough for someone in Germany to replicate the conditions before sending units over here to be examined. As I stated before, with the right electronics, the issue of voltage is moot. However, with all the private-label electronics/machinery inside the Viessmann there may indeed be regulatory headaches beyond the combustion/heat requirements (i.e. getting a UL listing on the fuel pump, for example).

Like I said before, many "safety" related quirks by market are more a factor of protectionism rather than real safety issues. For example, note the plethora of electrical plugs in the EU. So is there a good reason for the otherwise-identical Swiss plugs to be ever-so-slightly narrower than the German ones? Not unless you are just trying to create a non-tarriff barrier to entry of foreign goods.

Then there are environmental conditions that could also cause headaches... starting with training requirements, fuel contamination, etc. going all the way to liability concerns. If you're only going to sell a handful of units, it's probably not worth the risk or the headache.

Furthermore, I think you put your finger on the button with respect to payback, particularly in the commercial arena. Until the cost of utilities becomes a significant portion of doing business, few companies will focus any resources on them proactively (or, for that matter, to make a life-cycle analysis to see the payback associated with more expensive and efficienct equipment). In that respect, homeowners are a little better because they can see a more immeadiate payback for the investment they made.

Lastly, it is entirely possible that the shipping costs for large commercial boilers are simply prohibitive.

Ken_8

Paul

I suggest YOUR comment is more than "off base."

I asked a question - and stated the basis of the question.

Your chiming in is neither productive nor helpful. It is in fact inflammatory. If you choose to make derogatory comments about me or my questions, please do so via email.

I know you understand.

Thanks

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Ken_8

It is extremely relevant,

which is why I asked it!

Further, had it not been relevant, you would have answered directly - instead of dancing around it!

Point made.

To be continued at WS4...

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Murph'_5

What are you smokin'?

> Service and support can be very expensive,

> particularly when it comes to getting

> distributors to carry spare parts and the like.

> Since "no heat" conditions are a bit of a crisis,

> it's probably best to have quite a few spare

> parts spread across the USA, rather than one

> distribution center attached to a shipping

> company.

>

> For example, you can order computer

> equipment from a particular computer shop until

> 2AM and still get it the next day. How did they

> do it? By partnering with Airborne Express, which

> purchased a former SAC air base in Kansas or

> whatnot. There, Airborne maintains vast

> warehouses in the former plane shelters for

> distributors. Hence the 2AM cutoff... the planes

> leave around 3 AM, IIRC. Imagine that, a shop

> whose only staff is in the order-taking,

> trouble-shooting, and returns business.

> Everything else can be outsourced...

>

> More and

> more shipping companies are offering full

> logistics packages like this, allowing them to

> add more value, earn more money, and deliver

> goods more reliably. The internet has made it a

> lot easier to create a viable business selling

> physical and non-physical goods. Many companies

> have hence decided that distribution is not one

> of their core businesses, i.e. one they can

> happily outsource if it makes more economic

> sense.

>

> I found AGA testing requirements in the

> USA to be OK. Typically, the US tests are

> well-described enough for someone in Germany to

> replicate the conditions before sending units

> over here to be examined. As I stated before,

> with the right electronics, the issue of voltage

> is moot. However, with all the private-label

> electronics/machinery inside the Viessmann there

> may indeed be regulatory headaches beyond the

> combustion/heat requirements (i.e. getting a UL

> listing on the fuel pump, for example).

>

> Like

> I said before, many "safety" related quirks by

> market are more a factor of protectionism rather

> than real safety issues. For example, note the

> plethora of electrical plugs in the EU. So is

> there a good reason for the otherwise-identical

> Swiss plugs to be ever-so-slightly narrower than

> the German ones? Not unless you are just trying

> to create a non-tarriff barrier to entry of

> foreign goods.

>

> Then there are environmental

> conditions that could also cause headaches...

> starting with training requirements, fuel

> contamination, etc. going all the way to

> liability concerns. If you're only going to sell

> a handful of units, it's probably not worth the

> risk or the headache.

>

> Furthermore, I think

> you put your finger on the button with respect to

> payback, particularly in the commercial arena.

> Until the cost of utilities becomes a significant

> portion of doing business, few companies will

> focus any resources on them proactively (or, for

> that matter, to make a life-cycle analysis to see

> the payback associated with more expensive and

> efficienct equipment). In that respect,

> homeowners are a little better because they can

> see a more immeadiate payback for the investment

> they made.

>

> Lastly, it is entirely possible

> that the shipping costs for large commercial

> boilers are simply prohibitive.





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Constantin

Odd...

In the next thread, Ken chides Pauls post as inflammatory simply for stating that Kens comment was off base. Meanwhile, earlier in this thread, Ken happily denounces my abilities as a capitalist, free market thinker, etc. all while offering no proof or even opinion why this is the case. Call me crazy, Ken, but that smacks a bit of hypocrisy.

Similarly, you have yet to make a case as to why my ethnic religious beliefs are relevant to this particular topic. Just because you think it's relevant, that does not not mean it actually is. Last time I checked, Economics and Strategy were formulated equally well by folks from all over the planet, otherwise we wouldn't observe the success of foreign brands in the USA.

Regardless, I and others in apparent need of Kens allegedly superior analysis would like to finally get a glimpse of it. Several of us have shown genuine interest in this topic so presumably we'd love to learn more about the realities of market entry into the USA, with a particular emphasis on high-end heating appliances. Cheers!

Ken_8

Still more rhetoric and

Still no answer to my question.

And defensive vaguerries at that!

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jackchips_2

It seems

this line of dialogue could be ended if Constantin just answered Ken's original question, which started out as "May I be so bold", with NO.

Or if Ken just accepted Constantin's indignation at the question even being asked as a NO.

Actually, it is kind of enjoyable to see two intellectuals go at it.

Hey Murph, I told you it would be interesting once these two hooked up. :-)

Murph'_5

yeah I like the part

Where the UL is protectionism for the US products, but decided not to question it cause this would require too much double-talk from the one who post it. The record for US dis-content has been set this month on "the wall". And for the fans of foriegn products I use a quote "this country cannot stand by selling each other Insurance and cutting each others hair"!!



Murph'

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Constantin

(Sigh) Some people just don't want to get it

I told Ken something like six posts above to simply do a search, seeing that I have posted some sort of mini-CV on the Wall before. Thirty seconds later, I found the question that Mark Eatherton had posed, and my answer to it below.

Now that I have held Kens hand all the way to the answer of his question (since Ken either lacked the motivation or the skill to find it on his own), could Ken now be kind enough and answer my questions? I've only asked three times, it is getting tiresome. Cheers!

Constantin

Jackchips, see my post below

I would appreciate if you would post a correction accordingly.

The information that Ken seeks has been posted on the Wall for a long time, he simply did not want to bother looking for it. Now that I have posted a direct link to the information, perhaps Ken will reply with something more relevant to the topic at hand, i.e. why Viessmann is not offering its entire product range in the USA. Thanks.

jackchips_2

Correction?

Care to give me a sixteen paragraph explanation why?

All I did was suggest a way for you and Ken to give this a rest.

Ken_8

Connie,

In this country we try and be direct.

When someone asks you a question, we try and be as forthright and direct as possible.

Your suggestion that I play some game of searching for you on the net is hardly a direct nor appropriate response.

It suggests you are being obtuse - and most Americans don't care for obtuse, nor do we have the time nor inclination to play games.

Your refusal to answer a simple and direct question tells us more than some mis-guided replies you posted here.

When you stop the posturing and games perhaps you may earn some respect. Until such time, we are forced to assume you are merely another of the mundane euro-baiters.

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S Ebels

Regarding shipping/distribtors/parts availibilty

The particular Viessmann distributor I choose to deal with, stocks next to nothing besides a few boilers. If I want a control, it's shipped directly to me from Waterloo or Warwick. Same with a lot of other misc items.

So why have a distributor. Why not find some legitimate businesses that are in the hydronics trade, willing to order some stock, participate in preseason orders, etc. and sell directly to them?

I don't mean to offend the distributors reading this, BUT, if the shoe fits???........

I get frustrated I guess because I feel like I'm just swinging in the wind out here in the sticks. OK, location is part of my problem, nearest distributor that doesn't sell Viessmann products across the counter is 80+ miles away. I see the Viessmann rep for the state more often than the rep from the distributor. The distributor rep is a new guy about every 6 months and I have to train him all over again.

Drat!!!! turned into a rant again

Constantin

Very tricky transition

Many markets in the US have adopted technology rather quickly... however there are some very real risks associated with making the change. We did a market simulation in B-school where we role-played the marketplace over several rounds as a vendor tries out new distribution strategies.

Naturally, the moment a distributor gets the feeling that he/she is about to get disintermediated, they start to look for products from other firms to sell and raise the price of yours to strangle demand. Unless the internet grows your business significantly faster than the drop in business as the extant distributor-base drops your product, the switch can cost you dearly.

Not every heating technician will have the the training/awareness/resources/time/etc. to look to the internet first for his/her equipment and part needs. Instead, most will stop by the local supplier just as all their predecessors have trained them to do.

I became intimately aware of some of these issues when I started work on my mums boat and got to replace the entire electrical system, among other things. Local chandleries didn't carry many of the wires, connectors etc. that I needed. Thus, I ordered a great deal of parts from their online store (this place was a clicks&mortar kinda place) and picked them up at a physical outlet later on. Ordering parts is a great way to ensure you get what you wanted, as long as you're not in a great rush and you can plan your jobs ahead.

Distributorships obviously have their place though modern logistics may allow a manufacturer to maintain fewer warehouses. However, distributors continue to be squeezed by both buyers and suppliers - I predict a lot of consolidation as a result. In the meantime, the number of middlemen is shrinking. As profit margins approach razor-thin, "nice-to-have's" like training seminars will vanish. I'm not sure this is a good thing.

Furthermore, high carrying costs dictate that most businesses will stock fewer and fewer spare parts, particularly on the high end of the business. But even if you took the high-cost/high-profit items out, common high-volume parts should still justify a distributorship. Such businesses can consolidate parts needs, etc. among many buyers and hence take advantage of some economics of scale (think Cu pipes being delivered on a flatbed, boxes of fittings, etc.).

Constantin

Oh Well

Using the search button on the wall is not that difficult. It even allows you to search by author... Netiquette usually encourages folks to use the search capabilities of a particular forum to see if their question has been answered before... it saves everyone time and bandwidth.

At this juncture I wonder if you will ever quench my curiosity re: Viessmann or why you think I am not qualified to be a capitalist/free-marketeer/whatever. If you don't want to answer my repeated questions and/or need to have the last word every time, fine. Playing Troll or throwing flame-bait is easy enough.

What disappoints me the most about the whole process is that I actually hoped you would have something of substance to add to the discussion that Steve, I, and others were having here. Instead, all I harvest is insults, evasion, and mockery. I guess I have nothing to learn from you.

So go ahead, continue to mock, evade, and insult ad nauseum if it makes you feel better. Unless you change your behavior, I'll simply ignore your posts from now on, seeing that there does not appear to be anything positive to be gained from replying to them. Cheers!

Ken_8

Perhaps you should

try this.

Grow up - before you engage me again.

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