Would like your opinion/suggestions about this proposed system.

Deb_2

About a month ago, you all talked me out of using Radiantec for our radiant system and suggested we go with a professional. We have done so, and I was wondering if you would have any suggestions or comments on the system they are proposing. This is for 5800 sq. ft. of living space and 1800 sq. ft. of garage space in Wisconsin.

-Rehau 1/2" Oxygen Barrier Pex tubing

-Tubing will be stapled every 12" on center

-Tubing for first floor will be stapled direclty on top of sub-floor to be covered with lightweight concrete.

-Basement and garage tubing will be stapled to Styrofoam under the basement and garage slabs.

-Four zones and thermostats for the first floor

-Two zones and thermostats for basement

-Two zones and thermostats for garage

-140M Munchkin Natural Gas 92% Efficient Sealed Combustion Boiler, vented to outside with PVC piping with Vision outdoor reset control

-SSU Indirect 45-gallon water heater that operates of the Munchkin boiler

Thank you in advance for any suggestions,Gentlemen.

Deb

Constantin

I'm just a fellow homeowner...

...but this sure sounds like a much better plan to me than the Radiantec system did. Congrats. I look forward to seeing what the other folks here think of it. Cheers!

hr

Not a bad

sounding system at all! I trust they did a heat loss and load calc to arrive at the proposed system?

If so, and you like the company and have called and checked references, go for it.

Hope we can welcome you to the radiant club soon.

hot rod

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Weezbo

Sounds Sane.....

It is monet well spent to hire a mech mostly because he looks for lots of the "minor technicalities" prior to the oh Oops ! dang we shoulda....s ...:)hes probably helped you with the insulation side of the equasion also. see the value is we are a bit like the marines,we go in first check it all out and we are the last ones out:) Man I am happy for you. your heating system doesnt sound like too much BTU's and you have plenty hot water and i think the fuel consumption will be economical and the boiler you have while i have never installed a munchkin i understand them to be a very energy smart piece of work. Hurray! there is an old Chinese saying a bad deed travels 10000li but a good deed seldom crosses the threshold. Thank You for hearing the truth in what we were saying. there are long term benifits to putting things right the first go around.:) Good For You!

Mark Eatherton1

Things to do before signing on the bottom line...

Was the overall zone design yours or theirs?

Why 2 zones in the garage?

I have 7K square feet homes running on an 80 M just fine:-)

Most contractors have a habit out of "bumping" in their material sizing and estimation to avoid getting the dreaded cold call. In all my 30+ years of experience I've rarely been called out to the complaint of a "cold house". Generally, there is a mechnical failure that causes that discomfort. THe majority of the time the people who call me are complaining of OVER heating.

Make them show you the loss calculations. Check them in a few random rooms to make sure they're not dummying up just to satisfy your curiosity.

Ask them for and check in with completed job customers. Ask to go to the home and see their work. Look in the boiler room. Don't be intiminated by all the pipes and appurtenances. Do they look straight, square, clean and well supported? If they do, you're dealing with a pro. If not, you could be dealing with a hack. The difference is obvious. Check them out thoroughly, because you could be marrying them (and their system) for the next 20 years...

Ask the occupants of their homes about any warranty problems and how they were handled. Ask them about their experience with cleanliness during the install, courtesy, promptness.

Ask to meet with the installation crew and ask them what their policy is for protecting existing finishes. If they talk about carpet mask and rosin paper, it's a GOOD thing. If they shrug...it's a bad thing.

It's your call, and this one is 10 times better than your previous potential system. Just remember that you're getting ready to make the largest single purchase price on a "system" to be installed in your house, and it needs to last as long as possible.

The choice of manufacturers looks good.

ME

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Dave Stroman

Deb_2

Mark,

The system design is theirs.

As far as the two zones in the garage, I'm not totally sure why. The garage is bi-level and is one of those "boys and their toys" spaces for my husband. I will ask him why the two zones and let you know.

The company is a local one who my husband knows has an excellent reputation and has been in the business for years, so we feel very confident with that aspect.

You aren't kidding when you say "you're getting ready to make the largest single purchase price on a "system" to be installed in your house". Between the heating and cooling, it's costing way more than we planned for - no granite countertops for me!

Deb_2

hot rod,

We had to have a heat loss calculation to get our building permit, so I'm assuming they used that??? I will have to ask my husband about that.

The company is a local one with an excellent reputation.

Do you guys ever give opinions on cooling systems? This company is doing our cooling also and I was hoping to get an opinion on that portion also.

Thanks,
Deb

Deb_2

Weezbo,

Yes, they have made recommendations for the insulation.

I forgot to ask this in the original post......They have given us an option for an Energy Recovery Ventilator. The proposal states "It will provide air exchange in the home and also provide ventilation for th bathrooms. Each bathroom has its own timer to turn on the ventilator. One main control will be centrally located in the home."

Is that something like a whole house air exchange system?

Thanks,
Deb

Constantin

an HRV can be very useful

Think of it as a air exchange system that pre-warms the air it sucks into the house with the air it is expelling from it (via the bathroom fan). AFAIK, HRV's achieve several things.

1) They reduce unwanted infiltration (that is you control where the air comes from). This can be very important, depending on the strength of the blower, the tightness of the house, etc. For example, you probably would not enjoy having make-up air whistling down the chimney... and whatever air the fan expells has to be replaced somehow.

2) HRV's reduce your heating bill by recovering some of the heat that would otherwise be lost to the exterior. Depending on fan speed and temperature differences, the effciency can approach 80%+ (Nutone Lifebreath DCS series) though efficiencies in the 60's are more common. At higher fanspeeds, the efficiencies typically drop.

3) Significantly improve air quality in "tight" homes. HRV's are almost mandatory with SIPS and other types of construction where infiltration is almost non-existent. New construction these days is meant to be tight (hence the load calc requirement, etc.) so HRVs ought to improve indoor air quality a great deal.

As with every appliance that requires cleaning from time to time, I would think about where this unit will be installed to minimize noise, etc. yet where it will be easily accessible. After all, the cleaner the Alumnimum core typically found inside the HRV's the more efficient it will be at pre-heating intake air. Cheers!

Ken_8

Deb,

The system designs sound fine. The tubing spacing, 12" o.c. for your climate (unless the insulation and/or construction factors are above "typical") seems a stretch, but the heat load calcs. will reveal the basis of the designs better than our "conjecture" but the written agreement now comes into play big time.

Somewhere within the four corners of the contract should be a commitment regarding comfort and design assurances.

If the contractor puts into written words (the contract/agreement)language like, "We certify the designs and calcualtions upon which this estimate is based to be done in an accepted engineering and professional manner and warrant we have the expertise and capacity to do such calculations and designs." "We also warrant the comfort and temperature of the installed system to perform in a manner that is consistent with accepted norms and guaranty the temperatures in all alpects of the system shall be capable of providing a room temperature of 72°F on the coldest day."

Or words to that effect. This "language" is really essential for your protection. We hear all too many stories here about good jobs gone bad. It is not a matter of trust. It is a matter of basic legal protection - and doing what's right.

Remember, if things go bad, what they say, what you say and what you think are all moot.

The only thing that counts is what is within the four corners of the agreement/contract if push comes to shove down the road!

Good luck.

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Mark Eatherton1

Deb...

Properly done, it is worth every cent. You can't put a price on comfort. But you can put a price on DIS-comfort.

Good luck in your venture, and drop us a line the first time it's blizzarding outside and you're snug as a bug in a rug in your new radiantly heated home:-)

ME

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Weezbo

Yes. and Balancing is the ticket so to speak.

my buddy does a type of Sound transfer isolation that is kinda niffty .uses some insulated flex to cut down on harmonics in the system:) just as quiet as a hrv can be

Murph'_5

Hows about............

Some pics of the progress as it takes place?



Murph'

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Unknown

well

If you are doing a thin slab overpour (1.5"-2" of lightweight concrete), then I highly suggest going to 9" o.c. spacing at the very least under tile, and preferably under any tile or wood. Thinslab installations can display noticeable heat striping at 12" o.c. under floor coverings like that, especially during "warm up" or marginal heating loads.

Also, if your home is very tight/superinsulated, I would suggest using indoor reset control instead of thermostats to prevent temperature overshooting. The Outdoor reset on the munchkin may be adequate, but for a system this size, the additional cost of indoor reset should be managable and well worth it.

If you are not glycol'ing the whole system, seperate the garage with a heat exchanger and glycol it. If you lose power it will probably be the first area to be in freeze danger.

Best of luck!

_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

DaveGateway

Congratulations Deb

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DaveGateway

Congratulations Deb

It sounds like another happy marraige of homeowner and heating contractor. NRT rob's comments were right on. Tighten up that spacing around entry areas. Glycol to garage with HX is something I've always done for the same reasons. Not familiar with indoor reset but tekmar 511 with air and slab sense will get you there too. HRV is a great idea with tight new construction.

Can you tell how pleased we all are with your decision to do it right...ONCE? Can't wait to read your posts as work progresses. It sounds like your contractor has a handle on it. Good luck and I hope all the project takes as little toll on you as possible. Are you installing AC as well or are you in the "Great North" where you might not need it? Best wishes,
Tom Goebig

Deb_2

Tom,

I wasn't sure if I could ask a question about cooling in this forum, so I'm glad you asked about it. This is the cooling system they have proposed:

-Unico High Velocity 3.5 ton air conditioning system

-1 main return and 20 supply outlets

-System located in attic and all penetrations will be through the ceiling

Any comments on it?

Thanks,
Deb

Jim Eastman

Deb, I just joined this post. The Unico system is primo! The system that you have had specified for your new home is exactly what I would prefer in my own new home. It sounds as though your contractor has done the heat and cooling load calculations and I would anticipate that you will have an excellent and comfortable system ---- year 'round!

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

Mark Wolff

Comfort Guarantees

Ken

If her area adopted the International Mechanical Code, no contract guarantee is needed. The code requires a heating design capable of sustaining 72* F minimum temp. throughout the house on design day.

Hopefully others will adopt a similar code.

Ken_8

I'm no A/C wiz but...

Know enough that one large return and 20 supplies is poor at best. Unless of course you don't mind cutting the bottom 2-inches off every door in the house!

Well designed Unico's call for a return in every room with a door.

I'll let some A/C wizzard take it from here.

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Ken_8

Unfortunately,

The contractor will be long gone and his check cashed when we get to a design day.

Ever tried to sue someone because they violated a building code? Building codes are for building inspectors use. Not the basis of litigation for corrective action - should the house be cold

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Wayco Wayne_2

In my area

we use a central return on each floor with no problems at all. The gap under the door only has to be a half inch. A return in each room would be a small improvement but sometimes not worth the extra cost (IMHO). I like the central returns because you can put filter grills on them and filter the air as it comes into the duct system and never have to get your ducts cleaned. It's much healthier for the humans in the building to have clean ducts. Dust and mold can ruin your health by millimeters without you even knowing what's going on. In my house I even use a pre cut filter pad I buy from a local filter supplier, that has been sprayed with an anti-microbial solution that kills air born germs. How cool is that??? WW

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Mi39ke_2

12\" + AC

I would look into the 12" OC deal--maybe some of the others spoke about this.

Being a Wisconsin contractor, I haven't specified 12" OC for an "upstairs" application for quite some time. There are a lot of factors that go into this decision, obviously. Maybe your case is different.

In Wisconsin, we see Gypcrete being used for the most part. Make sure that it is Gypcrete or something with similar attributes at least. Lightweight concrete could be a poor choice dependant on the type (Siggy 2nd edition, pg 340).

In garages, we can normally spread the tube spacing quite a bit...save on tube there, add it to where it counts.

Important! If your contractor is having a supplier do the design, you will have a lot of investigating to do. So far you have said the contractor is doing it, but I've found that a lot of consumers don't realize they are getting a cookie cutter, one set of materials type of project, simply because the contractor never tells them that a supplier is actually doing the project.

I've heard tell they have real good suppliers on the East Coast and elsewhere, but the good ones are few and far between when it comes to hydronics in Wisconsin. Yes, we have been asked to fix designs done by suppliers, this is where we get our information.

As far as A/C goes. Keep the equipment and ductwork within the envelope if at all possible. Unico is a great choice, but you don't want to penetrate your envelope with all those ceiling penetrations. At the very least, get the air handler within the envelope, so you will only have duct loss to deal with (unless you don't seal the outlets during the winter, then mold can be an issue--all the more reason to keep your ducts in a warm space). Unico is great because you don't necessarily have to supply from the ceilings. We've done floor and wall applications with great success.

Good luck,

Michael Ward

Weezbo

coupled with an h r v wouldnt that have a bit

of a bearing on a/c that was functional? balancing the zones with fresh outside air i think would allow for a/c zoning and perhaps a bit of mixed air on cooler evenings?
It seems that indeed Deb has found someone who has considered some of the minor technicalities:) someone mentioned the 12 " on center,well perhaps they blew by the sentence where the lady mentioned the help she had with the "Insulation?" floor coverings also have a bit of a bearing... seems there is a sufficentcy,the builder may already be building to 5 star + . his bid sounds competitive so it doesnt sound like hes "selling" pex.