Can this VECO system be restored?

Carol_2

I’m hoping someone out there can help us.

In August 2003, we bought and moved into a 75-year-old house in Philadelphia. The previous owner had a new steam boiler installed in October 2002 (A Columbia CEG-C gas fired boiler fitted with a probe type low water cut-off and an electric water feeder). Except for a leak in a steam pipe, the system appeared to function okay when the home inspector tested it (albeit it was an unusually hot day in June). Prior to settlement, the plumber who installed the boiler for the previous owner replaced the leaky pipe and said all was fine. At the walk-through prior to settlement, we noticed the radiators in the back part of the house did not get hot. The same plumber came out and "balanced" the radiators. The first time the heat came on in the fall, everything seemed fine. Subsequently, the radiators in the back part of the house were not getting hot again. Then some of the radiators started leaking. Water was dripping from the traps through the ceiling! We closed the valves of the leaking radiators, but some still leaked from around the trap fittings and some of the radiator valves were stuck and could not be opened or shut. We put bowls under the traps to collect the water that dripped from them. By the end of December, steam was leaking from a different location in the basement. The heat cycle would usually end when the water level dropped too low, setting off the water feeder. In addition, the pipes are not insulated (the previous owner removed the original asbestos insulation) making the basement the warmest room in the house.

Since December, thanks to this web-site and some research done by the company that installed central air in our home, we have learned that we have VECO system (all the radiators have a VECO supply valve and return trap). However, it appears that the plumber who replaced the boiler did not know enough about this type of system to do the installation correctly. Certain key parts were removed and discarded: the governor, the air pipe connecting the condensing radiator to the flue, and a trap - however, most if not all of the original chains and pulleys are still in place. The condensing radiator was disconnected from the flue and sealed off. The pressure in the system runs around 10 psi. According to our HVAC contractor, the governor can be replaced with a "Watchman condensation tank," and installation of a Hoffman air vent #75, a 1" F/T trap, along with a significant amount of re-piping and pitching, should enable the system to function as it was designed to. The piping for the "whole house condensate return" will be replaced to remove any sediment. In addition, the return traps on all the radiators will be cleaned out.

Now that we know more about and have an appreciation for the system in our basement, we would like to restore it to its previous "glory" as best we can. As with any diagnosis, a second opinion is a good idea – especially since the repairs could cost in excess of $20,000. Therefore, we want to make sure the proposed fix is the best and right one. So we wait in anticipation of the knowledge, wisdom, and advice you have to offer us.

Thank you!
Carol and John

Boilerpro_3

Main problem is probably 10Psi pressure

Pressure this high will prevent the water from returning to the boiler from the sytem because it only has the weight of the water to get it back into the boiler. Nearly all the water in the system then collects in the piping and radiators. The pressure for this system needs to be kept under about 8 Ounces (not lbs)or 1/2 psi for the water to properly return to the boiler. The standard control shipped with boilers does not work for Vapor heating systems because it cannot regulate pressures that low. A vaprostat is needed. Proper regulation of the pressure should eliminate the need for the watchmen pump and alot if not all of the repiping.
Th air vent pipe was the only air vent for the system. If air cannot get out of the system, the vapor cannot get into the radiators, unless the pressure is turned up so high that it compresses the air (this is probably what is now happening). At minimum, a couple of large Gorton #2 vents need to be installed where the air vent pipe connected to the system to allow proper air venting.

This couple of inexpensive changes may be all you need, but you really should post some pictures, if possible, and get a hold of the truly knowledgble experts often at this site to look it over. You may even be able to get one of the best in the business Frank "Steamhead" Wilsey to check it out....he's in Baltimore.

Dave "Boilerpro" Bunnell

Ken_8

Dave's right

You need someone who "specializes" in vapor systems.

The VECO is a beauty when operated at 1/2 a pound!

If the contractor seems confused or distracted when you mention a "vapostat" - find a contractor who isn't.

Check the top box on the menu, up and to the left. See the section, "Find a Professional"? Put your zip in and see what comes up.

Gotta be better than anyone else on earth IMHO.





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Thad English

philly steam phixers

Big Jim Pompetti and Jamie Pompetti have worked on my 2-pipe steam system in the Overbrook Farms section of Philly. They are a good crew. They show up on time, do excellent work, and really know what they are doing. They're in the Find A Professional section here. Good luck gettin' that system back up and running the way it's meant to.

-Thad

gerry gill

i'm with BP on this one.

your system can be saved for alot less than you think..the vaporstat is a must...myself, i'd put the condensing radiators vent back into the chimney..when someone wants to add a feed system to a boiler always ask yourself''did the old system have one''..if not, best be a damn good reason to use it..

Unknown

My thoughts, exactly, Gerry

Steamhead

Mine, Too

when you have this system fixed, it will run extremely well and be the envy of the neighborhood- unless they have well-functioning Vapor systems too!

The VECO governor is not really needed for the system to work. Its function was to operate the draft doors to regulate the fire in the old coal boiler. When you replace the Pressuretrol on the boiler with a Vaporstat that cannot be set higher than 1 PSI, it will control the burner the same way. Oh, by the way, you do NOT need a Watchman or any other condensate tank and pump, or any F&T traps. Keep the pressure low and the water will return just fine, by gravity.

The Columbia boiler you have is a good, reliable unit. But it must be sized and piped correctly. I've attached a photo of a similar boiler with a "drop header" that we installed.

I'd reconnect the condensing radiator and chimney vent, and also vent the ends of the steam mains. The Gorton #2 is the best vent for Vapor systems, but don't install it where ambient heat can make it close prematurely. How long are your steam mains, and what pipe size?

If you need someone to come up and have a look (thanks, BP!) you can e-mail me and we'll talk.

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DaveGateway

2 pipe in Philly

Having met Jim and Jamie and subsequent posts here on the wall, I think you couldn't go wrong with these guys. It's been a while since I touched any two pipe but the guys here are a WEALTH of info.

john_27

Veco Comments

....you can certainly restore your Veco....a few thoughts....following this site, I installed Gorton#2's instead of Hoffman 75's....the venting rate is 5.5 cfm versus 1.5 cfm...gets the air out three times as fast...use a pressuretrol...mine runs at 8 ounces...stream travels very quickly through your system......I am surprised to learn that you have traps...I have a Broomell/Veco without any traps....you can clean your returns(instead of replacing them)...a slightly messy job, but much less so than installing new ones...I also have a condensing radiator(unattached)...because, in my case, the furnace draft no longer runs out of the same chimney....all in all, if you are willing to work a little, the guys on this site will surley do whatever they can to help you out.....p.s.I'm also in Philly...maybe we should create a Phil. Chapter of this site , both to help each other, meet some interesting people, and save a few systems!

Steamhead

VECO did make thermostatic traps at some point

Barnes & Jones has replacement cage units for them.

Also, if a system has water seals like Broomell, VECO, Vapor Regulator Co, Mouat and others, and some of these are missing, thermostatic traps will work OK as replacements. But some of us can build replacement water seals out of copper.

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Carol_2

Some Photos

Here are several photos of the Columbia boiler and surroundings, plus one of the piping at the far corner of the basement - note the capped steam loop line that used to supply the house and rest of the neighborhood.

Thanks for all the comments so far, this is a well-informed and friendly group. We'll be contacting some of the participants and recommended folks soon. - Carol and John

Boilerpro_3

Photos are very informative

While Steamhead would we the one completely in the know on the Columbia boilers, I believe you have serious mistakes in the piping surrounding the boiler. These mistakes are very likely contributing to your problems and are also very likely going to lead to early failure of the boiler!
If you have the installation manual for the boiler, there probably are some very clear diagrams on how it is to be piped, and I doubt this is one of them!

I would not run this boiler until they are corrected beause you may see the boiler fail very quickly if it hasn't already done irreparable damage.

Boilerpro

Steamhead

You're Absolutely Right, BP

but at least they didn't use copper on the steam piping.... Ordinarily this would be good, but black pipe is more difficult to Sawzall thru on the repiping job.

Carol, that boiler was not installed correctly. Most likely the installer used the instructions for knee pads. It's good that we got to it in time though- a proper repiping will cure a lot of your problems, unless the boiler was not sized properly. Have a good steam man look it over to be sure.

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Mad Dog

Just found this post

The steam panel is in unanimous agreement. Mad Dog

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Christian Egli

Unanimous

I too, have come too late to this post, but it always makes me happy when smart home owners know that preserving and maintaining their steam is in their best interest. I get a cold chill when someone talks about a forced air conversion.

Dear Carol and John, the advice you got here about your near boiler piping is precious. Also, you mentioned that the insulation on the mains had been removed. That could be giving you some of the problems you mention. Re-insulating them should make the system run better and faster and today's fiberglass coverings are not particularly expensive either.

Congratulations for getting brilliant advice,

Christian Egli