Possibly my largest job ever

hr

at installing a hydronic system in this McMansion. Supposed to be a replica of a Vanderbilt Mansion back east somewhere. The builder is a former Connecticut developer.

It is a basement and 3 levels at 3800 square feet per level. The owner wants hw baseboard, but i would like to option panel radiators and some radiant floors.

Naturally there is only one room set aside for mechanical, in the basement. That puts me at 46 feet from basement to 3rd level floor, with 10 and 12 foot ceiling heights. So I have operating pressure issues.

Looking for ideas on designing a panel radiator system. Maybe a home run system? TRV's at every

What operating temperature do you fellows design panel radiators around?

I'd like to ballpark a figure for him before I get serious about a loss and design, any ideas? Feel free to e-mail me with pricing estimations tips :)

hot rod

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Jed_2

HR

You could do a 2 pipe/RR/Floor with a controlling t'stat on each floor(location important) for heat demand,TRV's for "zone" control. Siggy's HDS will set the Static pressure. Just use derating factor for SWT to size rads. Would work with weather compensation control. Set controlling t'stat high for effective constant circ. Use by-pass valves on rads, and consider ^P per valve for circ. sizing. Did one similar this past year, not quite as large.

Jed

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

That would

be a nice job for you.

So, at 46' above the mechanical room, you'd want to fill the system to 30 psi at the boiler; that would leave 6 psi at the highest radiator to purge air. Put a 50 psi relief valve on the boiler and pressurize your x-tank to 30 psi.

Yes, home runs (using PEX or in your case, PEX-AL-PEX) off one or multiple manifolds works very well.

I design panel radiators at 170°; make sure you use a conservative design temperature.

Ballpark figure? Hmmmmmmm. We talkin' Buderus or Runtal?

Alan

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Kinda' looks

like it's based on "Marble House" in Newport, RI.

If I recall my Vanderbilt trivia, at the housewarming the guests arrived to a giant pile of sand in the big hall with all of its marble and alabaster and were each given a Sterling pail and scoop. They dug and played in the sandpile to find the precious gems that had been added as party favors.

p.s. You probably already have it but the sizing/application manual for Buderus panels [at their website--to lazy to look up the link now] is really good.

jackchips_2

Come on

hotrod, is this really the new "empty nest" summer home for you and Ellen?

Do you have a shot at the plumbing also?


Best of luck as it will sure be fun to follow.

DaveGateway

How about....

an upper floor mechanical room? The water delivery must be boosted to deliver to those third floor baths. With a 3800 sf. footprint they could allocate a room or closet for the top floor(s). In a house like that the room should be tiled with floor drain like a shower including membrane or lead pan. It would ease piping, pressure, and head issues.

Steamhead

Operating pressure issues

Any way you could put a HX on the second floor, and run your second and third floors off that?

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tim smith_2

Temps for panel rads

I usually like to design around 160, even have designed as low as 140 due to customer was concerned about small toddlers.

Mike Kraft_2

COME ON HOT ROD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pricing questions???!!!!!????Ask your wife:)

cheese

PS.Agreed with Alans suggetions.PAP from manifolds.Buderus has a great panel design manual as also suggested.Steamhead makes a very good suggestion also.Tony Conners sells some spiffy HX's as does Slant Fin.Oventrop has some SS manifolds(guess you know that)and TRV's.Caleffi offers some pretty cool stuff too.How's $6.00/sq'?Need some help:)

cheese...twist my arm,I'll wear my cowboy boots

Pss.Doing my math a little longer.........6/sq' uhhhhhhh leave the number crunching to Ellen:)Thats one to ponder brother!The best of luck.When is this breaking ground?

hr

I like the method in figure 3 of this article. Maybe use those nice Oventhrop stainless steel manifold boxes!


http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,23759,00.html

All good thoughts guys, thanks.


I'd like to feed the panels from behing instead of pipes through the floor. is this common with panel radiators. Seems easier to protect the rough piping, as opposed to runs through the floor?

Following Steamheads thoughts, maybe two boilers with one in the basement and the second on the upper level. if he goes hw bb I would use sealed combustion cast boilers. maybe a condensing boiler if I design around 150 supply 30° delta T.

I like the look and price of the DiaNorn panels, but it still looks a lot more $$ than my favorite # 30 Slant Fin bb. I suspect the Mrs. of the house will make the call from a design "look"

Cheese, 16,000 square feet times $6.00 per square foot?? Is that a reasonable # in your area? Keep in mind he needs a central air system also.

Time for some late night # crunching. It's an accurate labor hour number that makes or breaks these ever changing customs

hot rod

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DaveGateway

Radiation

If the owners are replicating an historic home, where do panel rads fit? Cast iron baseboard is attractive and fits well with tall, victorian, three or more profile base trim. Second staged with radiant floor (even staple up) will perform wonderfully. CIBB with zoning and control will stack up to any RFH or RF cieling in my opinion. Tell 'em about all the oak or poplar they'll save with Burnhamm or Slant Fin as their baseboard and heat source.

If the architects and owners are truly trying to replicate, they could spec rads from the original house.

OK...reality check. The Vanderbilt estate is a well documented historical home. I would be extremely interested how the original central heating plant worked. A well engineered floor heating system with second stage radiators for extreme conditions seems to be the way to go.

Mark Hunt

Good luck HR


Panel rads are fantastic.

With the TRV's and constant circ.........it doesn't get much better than that.

I hope you get the job!

Mark H

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Mi39ke_2

Aesthetics

The Dianorms don't turn on the ladies, I'm afraid. I try to get the gals interested in Buderus, etc. all the time. If the gal wants price, they might take a bite, otherwise...

They like the look of the Runtal. They love the feel and finish of a Vasco.

If you are going to show, be prepared with a variety. The cheap convective tin BB can easily be shown up with samples of the other product.

Look to the welds! Show them how the manifolds connect...if they are still interested after the first few minutes, that is. [g] Even if they aren't! Sometimes I feel like jumping around the room like Raymond in Dan's latest article when I have people in looking at various rads. [chuckle]

Michael Ward

Mike Kraft_2

Take a look

at these.I think Paul Pollets has used these.As far as $6.00/sq'..well I knew I screwed that all up.I forgot about the basement and whatever the rest of this place is going to have.My mind is stumbling.What a job.Again the best of luck.Thats a mountain eh:)You gonna burn out or fade away?

I dont know if the attachment will work.If not cut and paste this.Its a BIG PIC!http://www.oventrop.com/en/index.htm

cheese(you going to wetstock?)

S Ebels

We did one a lot like that

Three story, all old cast iron rads that were ripped out, (it's OK to weep now) all original piping gone, just the bare shell left. Sad, but that's what we started with.

Anyhow, here's what we did and it works fantabulous.

The boiler is a gas fired Vitola allowing us to go down to nothing water temp-wise. We installed 24 Radson panel rads with Oventrop TRV's on every rad. Main piping was 1 1/2" copper all in the basement. Each rad was piped home run to a manifold on the main loop. The main piping is reverse return and the head was figured using the longest loop as a reference point. Elevation is really not an issue once the system is filled because you have the water going back down pulling the water back up. The circ just has to deal with the initial piping head. The manifolds were 1 1/2" Stadler pieces with 6 loops per. They were staggered at various distances from the boiler throughout the length (55') of the basement. This allowed us to keep the loop lengths feeding the rads to a somewhat similar length. A 15-58 on speed 3 rotates the water just dandy. Punch it out on Siggy's software and you'll see that there's not as much head as you'd think if you keep your pipe size up where it belongs on the main. In this particular home the longest run of PAP was 88' out and back.

We didn't have the opportunity to do any floor warming on this job but it can easily be incorporated at your stage of the game. I done it a lot of times just letting the pex run on the same curve as the rads using spacing and flow to balance things out. The underfloor is always run constant circ and the rads act as a second "stage". VERY comfortable home when done like this. They are literally wrapped in nice gentle heat on all sides.

As far as design water temp, you can use anything you want. We held it to 160* max to keep the boiler down in peak operating efficiency range 90% of the time. The lower the better but size of the rads becomes an issue at much below 160* @ outdoor design.

Dan Peel

Fun numbers

Hi HR
For thru the wall roughins look at stelrad's laser-tec line. Both pipes from the same side with a rough in wall block, neat, professional and right every time. David has an abundant (sometimes too much information) website @ www.stelradcanada.com . I'm designing at 150 avg. That much house should support a condenser plus a cast workhorse for the higher temp apps.
I'm staying under 5ooo Sq.Ft.so far this year, Just doing a bundle of them! Slab on grade plus many days of rain. I could price it in Canadian dollars for you - no overhead right? Enjoy.......Dan

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Paul Pollets

Distribution

I'd install a supply and return main using MultiCor PEX-Al-PEX or copper, with a manifold on each floor for home run distributions to each radiator. I'd use the press fittings to reduce installation, there are even 1/2" swivel nuts x PEX adapters for direct connection of Multicor (or composite piping) to the bottom of the Buderus WPRads, or TRV bodies. I'd use a 20 deg delta T. and a PBD valve at the pump. Wirsbo has a 3 way Belimo mixing valve with motor (for a great price) for radiasnt subzones. Large homes are good for ProPanels to save install time, unless you're doing the Viessmann thing...BTW... Big homes deserve Viessmann....

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TGO_54

DiaNorm

Hi Hot Rod,

DiaNorm makes a bracket for rough in of their radiators. It works for through the floor or through the wall and is adjustable for all the radiators in their line 2 1/2" to 6". I think you can also use it to pressure test the piping. I just started a job with the DiaNorm panel radiators and I ordered the brackets. Unfortunally the directions are in German and DiaNorm can't supply me with an English translation. Good thing I only look at the pictures anyway

Weezbo

think two heat sources, or 50psi.

it looks good:) radiant floors sounds perfecto way upstairs a seperate heat source and zones might be a better clip with some panel rads and baseboard in the bedrooms maybe a dash of floor warming in the baths. the other idea is bumping up the pressure on the boiler ...sometimes it takes a bit of fritzing with things to get it to calm down:) you could use a remote station on each floor to save a few steps running up and down the stairs to deal with things.big places require a lot more long distance track and field as it were ,and often choke the life outta your joy on a job.if you are also bidding in the dwv and potable and hrv or ac talk with the GC and get a few chases worked into the equasion. if you have gas appliances the amount of work is intense...immediately sell the GC on the necessity of straight lines:) the soffits used for the hrv are a great place to drag the drains waste s and vents also.my main problem is trying to remember what floor im on:)) your boiler room can have a happy extra 2X8 wall to hide all kinds of cross overs etc where you drag the pipes in ...test every thing with the back off the wall then when you have the pipes all lsecure and tidy the boiler room will look "simple" and really clean:)water pressure on the domestic is sometimes a bit of a go too.so ,i over size the hot water line for the tub and showers and put a little itty bitty mini trol as a water hammer kinda deal off the reducing T.oh and dont forget to think out the recirc line for the domestic Hot water:) all this gets spendy.so,dont think large #'s are somehow supposed to make you feel guilty and charge less...theres a heck of a Lot of more efforting going into the running around track and field event:) walki talk'is are definitely the way to roll on some of it and well worth dragging around. I wish you all the good fortune on this job and have faith you will get the shot:)......OOps! i almost forgot,put the boiler or two boiler in the garage and pipe to the mech room:) face it two buderas need thier own room in the garage:)

Don_31

similar job

I am in the middle of a job like this myself.
We are using a 2 pipe reverse return system to keep system temperature consistent and controllable. We are using Danfoss thermostatic radiator valves in every room with the remote capilary to make it a wall stat (much easier than trying to get on your knees to adjust temperature).
Our installation is a mix of radiant and Burnham Sunrads. We are using constant circulation when the outdoor reset reaches its setpoint. There will be Danfoss pressure differential valves at the pumps so if nothing is calling for heat the pumps will not dead head and fail prematurely.
We are using two boilers with Tekmar controls for lead-lag and outdoor reset.

Mark Eatherton1

What Don said, except...

I'd put the pressure differential control at the furthest point away from the pump. This causes the mains to also become a part of the heat delivery/distribution system.

I'm pretty sure you can get a munchkin in a high pressure (ASME) model (50 PSI). You have to ask for it and special order it.

Continuous circ with outdoor AND indoor reset and non electric TRV's will deliver the quiet, quality comfort a home like this deserves. You can also do the RFH in the bathrooms using the same techniques. You can use an Oventrop Uni-box, or their remote, or Danfoss. Just make sure you giive yourself a good tubular chase to get from the manifold to the thermostat location. Our guys have been using 1" flexible aluminum wire casing (Greenfield) and then sucking a red wire nut with a string attached to it from the manifold station to the thermostat station with a shop vac, then pulling the cap tube and power head back to the manifold station. Slick as a pigs whistle.

As for cost, it is much faster and less expensive to do a long running main than it is to home run everything. Kitec K2 for mains and branches and transitions to copper just before coming out of the floor to the radiators (to avoid the dreaded vacuum cleaner dents-n-dings) and you've got yourself a working system in no time...

As for reverse return versus direct return, I used to think it mattered a whole lot, but due to the self balancing nature of the system, I don't think it's as critical.

Design the system for a 30 degree drop in temperature and keep your piping sizes small. Also consider using 140 degrees as your maximum supply temeprature to keep its operating temperatures within the "sweet spot" of a condesing boiler, put in a V-1 control and let 'er rip!

You ARE the authority in the area. I hope they realize what kind of "package" they'll get if they take your bid. Good luck and keep us posted.

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Smart man...

The woman of the house makes 90% of the buying decisions. I've NEVER lost a job where I made the presentation to the woman of the house first, and the hubby second.

ME

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Kal Row

i looked at the picture...all that wood..

i would impress upon the builder to use at least a thin layer of Georgia Pacific Dens Glass Gold fiberglass sheetrock on the outside, that’s fire, moisture, and mold proof, it’s that yellow board you see around some sites – also comes in gray 3/8 thin format as a substitute for DURA-ROCK concrete wallboard – used behind bathroom tile

that house is a fire trap, I really, really, really, would try, to sell them a pex based sprinkler system, – you will have to do circular supply loops, and put a little antifreeze into it, so what,, with pex, it’s no big deal

that house is huge – they will need domestic hot water recirculation or waste tons of water!!

now: think of panel radiators as radiant heat with a 0 resistance value so 110 supply and 90 return, would actually produce radiant heat, provided it’s opposite stationary people – like on the ceiling over, or on the wall opposite, the TV couch, piano, computer desk, etc

if you are using them as convection heat – they need much higher temps like 190, and are way less efficient at convection, than fin-coil

your most troublesome spot will be near grade level, northwest, consider aluminized sub floor radiant, over there

never put all your eggs in one basket, they will obviously put in central-air, let the air handlers be forced air furnaces also – same goes for DMHW – not one 75gallon, rather two 40’s – or one direct and one indirect

as for pressure: 46ft/2.33per-ft=19.72 static pressure system off and cold, when hot at the boiler, which will hopefully be behind the pump, it will be apx 25psi, on the discharge side of the pump it will be 30+, which is ok, because by the time it’s gets back to the boiler – it’s back down to 25, even though if you do primary secondary, and the primary resistance is as little a 3psi, and not a problem – since the primary pump will be creating more velocity than pressure, it should still not cause a 30psi relief to seep – you can always put in a 35psi relief for good measure – even if you are using WM ULTRA’S – where they tell you not to run steady past 25 – they themselves ran in for years and years in their lab at 55 , – the pressure ratings are real conservative
also I like to pre-charge the exp-tank in between hot and cold states – in your case 22psi, lowers the avg load on the diaphragm


Use sealed combustion boilers only – and place them where they can be gotten at easily – like the garage - – I am not even going to start with condensing/non-condensing or brands – go by what you have the best experience with – AFUE’s are bunk – at the end of the day, the real efficiency will come from, you, having not only, having done your heat loss correctly, but also taking into account what people are doing at each location, and zoning, I cant begin to tell you how many houses are cooking – because an old mother-in-law – is living in a grade level apt – sitting in font of the TV all day – and freezing unless the rest of the house is cooking – trust-me, for such a person an infra-red bathroom type heat lamp, controlled by a dimmer, next to the couch (or x10 remote), is the cheapest thing to run – even if you are paying 40cents per KW like in Europe!!!!, build it in, under the TV, and let it, cook her!!! – this is such a simple solution to such a common problem, I cant understand why it’s not in widespread use
ze oooollld shteeem zis-teeems verked zo vell – because the radiators were exposed and placed where they could radiate at people, “direct the heat” – don’t let it direct you –


look into Dan Foss’s (wall joke of the day) ready made manifolds, at any rate
“manifolds”, “tekmar”, “spring-checks” – it’s like a mantra – think of yourself as a symphony conductor, take pride in being the maestro – heat doesn’t flow anywhere until you swing you baton at it!!! – if you showcase your mec room – most HO’s will show it off too – so do put your contact info on it, in large bright easy to read letters

and post PICTURES!!!!!!

Ps if you put the boilers in the garage, then the static pressure on the boiler will be reduced to 15.4 cold and so on…because there is 10ft less water weight on it than the mec room in the basement

Kal Row

one more - not so bad

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Panel Rads in Extremely Formal Places

Hey Hotrod,

Here's a sketch with the sort of placement/proportions I was talking about in my message.

hr

Thanks, all

for some great ideas. The owner is out of town this week. I hope to meet up and seal the deal next week. Plenty of good options for zones and controls in this thread!

hot rod

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Weezbo

Keep it in mind...:)

Bob_36

FLOW PATH THROUGH RADS

In Kal's diagrams of correct flow paths, I want to know if they apply to panel rads only, or should I apply it to ci rads as well. In your first dia. you have the water enter on top and leave on the same side bottom. Wouldn't it be better if the flow was opposite, so the heat would rise all the way accross the rad? Also, can I leave the old steam shut off valves in place, or do I need to switch to water valves. Some I'm having a tough time removing. So if it's ok to leave, I will. Thanks for the info in advance.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

IMHO those diagrams would only apply to modern panel radiators. Sectional cast iron rads have huge internal passages and velocity would have to be extremely high or exceptionally low to prevent the rad from heating quite evenly.

Literally millions are connected bottom-bottom with no problems. Many are connected top-bottom (usually supply on top, return on opposite bottom) and these work fine as well. I've even felt a couple connected top-top and they seem to heat quite evenly! Just don't connect supply and return on the same side unless you have or can find the special fittings that extend an internal pipe to the opposite side.

The Honeywell "Unique" valve sort of broke this rule as it allowed both supply and return through a single tapping without a long tube, but I don't think you'll be able to find new ones...

Kal Row

it's all about molecular density

cold water is denser then hot water - so the two displace each other rather than mix - ask any submariner about thermoclines, “be the water” as dan says – hot light water coming in at the top, is not going to push thicker colder water below it out of the way, when it’s far easier to just go across, down and back

also hot water at bottom entering into cold water will be instantly displaced straight up

floyd’s son recently, successfully piped a building with the hot top in, and cool bottom out, on same side

and yes, these diags are only is for panel radiator like the “myson” products – for others, with a more vertical flow arrangement, or turbulators – it would be different, however the physics are still the same, hot water above, wont push cold water below, out of the way unless there is no where else for it to go

as for the valves: steam valve are really designed for low pressures, they are likely to leak in a Hydronic application, use large pipe wrenches with even larger pipe extensions to remove the old valves, or hire mad dog with his six foot wrenches that i can't even lift

Bob_36

ci rad install

I've seen alot of different set-ups as well. My brother-inlaw has all three set-ups in his house. I was just wondering if one was much more efficient than the others. Can anyone say if I can re-use my old steam shut-off valves in stead of in stalling hw valves. I am having trouble getting a few of them out. Thanks for the help.

Dale

A few thoughts

First, when I see guys here on the wall with these huge places on the east coast they are often hydro air jobs. I too would prefer panel rads but it's a thought on AC and heat application. If they could get you a mechanical closet on each of the upper floors the tubing runs would be a lot less complex and shorter. And, perhaps the selling point, a dhw tank near the baths on each floor would keep the main tank size down and the forced circulation of domestic hot water lessened. I wonder if this is how Michaelanglo felt when the old pope asked him to finish St. Peters.

Jim_47

Vanderbuilt

HotRod, The Vanderbuilt home is in Hyde park, New York, overlooking the beautiful Hudson river. If this house is anything like our Vanderbuilt in HP,NY then you really want your name all over it! The Vanderbuilt home is now in the federal parks program and is open for tours year-round. Nice Place!

Jim_47

Vanderbuilt

HotRod, The Vanderbuilt home is in Hyde park, New York, overlooking the beautiful Hudson river. If this house is anything like our Vanderbuilt in HP,NY then you really want your name all over it! The Vanderbuilt home is now in the federal parks program and is open for tours year-round. Nice Place!

Weezbo

this is a good read,and i wonder did you go take a look?

are you still "in There" ? maybe the GC had a chance to realize You the Man for the work

Kyle Kubs - Benchmark Home Inspections

Pressure issue

Don't forget good old Peerless boilers are rated at 40 psi... Should give you the extra room you need and still able to stay with CI. As for the rest, I bow out gracefully with tail firmly tucked, and quietly listen to what the others tell you. Good luck, looking forward to seeing progress picks and hearing the stories...

hr

we were light years

apart on the bid vs the budget Oh well it's a FA home now

Sadly that skylift in the picture tipped over one day on soft ground, trying to reach that 3rd level, killing a father, injuring his son and the operator.

hot rod

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Mad Dog

The great hot water minds have spoken...........................

This job is right up your alley....you'll eat it up, Hot Rod. Just make sure you charge enough for all the tinkering, and fine-tuning you'll want to do after shes up and running. They're nuts not to go with you - irrespective of price....Last time I heard The Vanderbilts were still filthy rich!!!!!!! Good luck Mad Dog

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Jeff Lawrence_24

Bid vs. Budget

Isn't that just the way? There are too many people that have radaint dreams on a FA budget.

Jeff



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