Steam vs Hot Air?

Dean_7

Search for and read the thread steam heat. this is what happened when I cleaned up and restored my steam system.

madhouse

steam vs hot air?

Hi guys, first time posting but it’s a big one.
I have a 60 year old 2000 sf two story cape in N.J. It is masonry construction with non insulated plaster walls. New windows going in this summer. Second floor ceiling has R-19. Currently heating with 12 yr old gas steam boiler 125,000 btu’s. Cooling with 5 window units totaling about 55,000 btu’s (overkill but cools hot house down in about 30 min.)
My problem is my current heating cost is $3200 a year (ouch) and cooling about $600 (not too bad).
What do you think about me putting in a high efficiency forced hot air furnace and same a/c unit.
I work maintenance in a 300 unit housing complex and would have no problem doing the work myself. I do a lot of a/c repairs now. Own some equipment from auto mechanic days ( i.e. gauges and vac pump) Plan on getting some help with duct design from hvac tech but have a pretty good understanding of it myself. I would like to cut down energy costs and get rid of all those window units. (Too noisy)
Someone told me a high efficiency condensing furnace does not work well in a old poorly insulated house. Any input on this? I have an internal 2x2 chimney in the house that I plan on removing and using the cavity for the return ducting. Full basement and crawl space in second story should make running the ducts possible.
I found a website that is selling a Janitrol GMNTE080-4 92.6% efficiency, variable - speed blower 80,000 btu furnace and a 3 ton 14 Seer a/c package for about $2500. Any input on these units? Size sound about right? Planning on zoning floors with dampers. Only need to cool or heat one floor at a time.
I know it’s a lot of questions and I will probably have more but any help / ideas would be appreciated. Thanks!

Boilerpro_3

First things first.....

I would first see if your steam system is performing as its supposed too, before making decisions you will probably regret.
Do you have proper venting, is boiler piped properly, is the boiler water clean, is the thermostat set up for steam heatind and many other items...? I'd start here first. Pictures of the boiler and nearby piping would provide a good start for the steam experts here to point you in the right direction. Also, I'm sure one of them must the nearby to take a look at your system. I don't know fuel costs on the east coast, but it sure sounds to me like you have some serious system problems that are running up your fuel bill.

Also, FA heating and cooling running in the same ductwork is inherently a poor system. Air volumes for cooling and heating are different, as is the balance of airflow depending on the season. Ultimately, you would probably be best served by getting the steam system in good working order and adding a separate cooling system with ductwork designed specifically for efficient, comfortable cooling. You may also want to check out the Hi velocity cooing sytems out there...they are supposed to be really nice and dont require the major surgery the ductwork installation usually requires, that can effect the structural and fire proof integrity of your home.

Boilerpro

Kal Row

do NOT, i repeat do NOT!! get rid of you steam system.


Also do not get rid of you windows units – you will need them as maintain/backup

I always believe in having backup – cause things die at the most inopportune moments, thus you dont buy a 75gal hot water heater – but rather 2 40gal units, and if you steam boiler has a hot water recovery coil, have the cold supply go there first (through a mixing valve of course)

There are a few hi-velocity central cooling systems out there that allow you to duct with 2” flexi’s that you can literally snake through walls – people have even run returns the same way back – so you don’t have to kill your chimney



Steam heat in my opinion is the original radiant heat, born at a time when people wanted to keep the windows open for fresh air, but not feel cold, so the put the radiators in a place where the vast amount of infrared energy coming off the radiator, would hit them. Then, the next generation came along, and messed with the perfect placement, – and buried them, where they only provide minimal radiation, and very little convection, did not maintain the system at all, and wondered why the bills were so high, or the system banged like it was possessed, – buy dan’s book – “the lost art of steam heat” - and clean up your system.

Make sure the all the vents are working properly and sized correctly, the returns are clean, your near boiler piping correct, the water level correct, and, the radiators exposed where they can RA--DI--ATE!!!!! . Otherwise the boiler is delivering the BTU’s, but you are not taking them away – the thermostat, keeps calling for heat, the pressures back up, the boiler surges wet steam and the pipes bang, – the banging, is the boiler talking to you, saying, “KNOCK-KNOCK, H-E-L-L-O!!! – do you want the heat or not!!!!”

people out there with a proper working system and similar load, are paying 160 per month avg and 400 a month for the very coldest 2 months only, so your system is obviously sick,

UNLESS – (the big UNLESS) you run the system at 80F 24/7 for some old lady in the house - In which case, it will be cheaper, to provide infrared electric lamps to play on her when she sits on front of the TV, Piannna or wherever else she spends most of here awake resting time – give her a thermostat – but do not hook it up to anything!!! Just make sure the infrared light plays in it too – OR bite the bullet and install radiant heat - if an always home, cold person, is really your problem, LOL, - there are very few options that will actually save you money – and, for our female fans, reading this, that are wondering, why i assume that it's a lady who’s the cold one, it's because, on average, men are warmer then women, – cause the creator, designed the human male to go out into the cold and hunt it, and the female to stand over the hot fire and cook it… get over it!! – ah, don’t you just love biology, it put the “post”, into post modern feminism

Robert O'Connor_7

Steam vs FH

Yeah Steam!!!! BOOOO Forced Hot Air. Fix your underpreforming steam and the money your gonna save, then get AC (only)..Robert O'Connor/NJ

madhouse

Thanks for all the help guys. Not that I don’t believe what you say but just some thoughts to consider. If the steam is so good why was it abandoned years ago? I cant believe it is so much more expensive to install than other forms of heat. Lets place cost aside for now. People who build million dollar homes with huge budgets would never consider steam. If I tried too sell my house tomorrow the steam heat would definitely be a negative. I guarantee the next owner would not waste any time tearing it out and putting in water or air. I have talked to several people and when you say steam heat they cringe.
With all that said I have to agree with your assessments on the current system. The system is very cut up and inconsistent in its design. I have cast iron BB radiators. Some have vents and some do not. The piping going to the second floor was an add on of 3/4 inch copper. If I vent the first floor radiators no steam gets to the second story. I think the 3/4 line is too small. Some radiators have a return line some do not. There is a main vent in the return line at the boiler that seems to do most of the work. Two rooms have no BB at all. As you can see I would think the whole sys needs a major upgrade. No offence to you guys but in my area there are no skilled tradesmen around to help out. As I said in my original post I work in a large housing complex and also own several rentals. The butchery that I see is unbelievable. I have to follow around the so called skilled contractors and fix their screw-ups! I think its because its a small rural area with little competition so anyone with a tool belt can call himself a tradesman and get rich. I have been researching forced air systems and cant believe how sophisticated they can be if done correctly. The guys in this area just throw it together with some sheet metal and flex duct. I can see now how poorly it is put together. I have found that air is just like steam. If its not designed and installed correctly it will waste energy but still work to some degree making the owner unaware his sys is no good. I see Dan has a book for sale on steam heat. Does anyone know if it has anything on BB radiators. Well the more I beat this thing to death the more confused I get. Maybe I need to go with my original pellet stove idea. Thanks again

Dean_7

steam vs hot air

You answered your own question. Steam has to be installed correctly and maintained properly to work correctly. Too many people take the cheap,easy and fast way today. Real craftsman are rare today. And Too many people believe what someone else tells them because to do their own homework and make up their own mind might entail work.

Mike Kraft_2

Pellet stoves and FA

Madhouse,
You're in NJ.You said you cannot find a qualified tech to help you with your steam.You have 5 window shakers to keep you cool.You work at a housing complex(I think)and own rentals.You are witness to levels of butchery that we all are all to familiar with.Your home is 60 years old and have a 15 year old boiler.Your addition is piped with 3/4" CU supplies(for steam no less) and some rads are vented and some are not.So we've hit the Wall............pun intended:)

Your mind is spinning.Dont know where to turn.Well sir madhouse you have come to the right place.Don't pull the sawzalls ,hammers and dumpster yet!!!!!!You came for answers and @ this place you have the cream of the crop for steam.You need some time(right time of year),patience,an open mind and some $$

First off call this man........he knows his steam!!!

Palmer Heating, LLC
Ken Secor
License: 22-3557007
1044 Elm Terrace
Rahway, NJ 07065
Phone: (732)388-1794
Fax: (732) 388-4632
Email: palmer.heating@verizon.net

Second take boiler pros advice.Seek your cooling needs with a hi velocity system.Your window shakers may in fact keep you cool.But they do not even begin to address humidity.You can be cool but still be clammy.Address the humidity and sizing of the system is so important.As is with heating.A great man once wrote "The urge to oversize is greater than a mans sex drive":)You are right......there is alot of stuff out there.

I hope this helps and take my advice and call this man.Even if he isn't in your neck of the woods........he can be for a fee :)He and his crew are top shelf.And there is ALOT of sense in a bit of investment if what you already own will heat your home.Perhaps the heating bills are high because the nieghborhood butcher has been in your home;)

Mike Kraft_2

Pellet stoves and FA

Madhouse,

You're in NJ.You said you cannot find a qualified tech to help you with your steam.You have 5 window shakers to keep you cool.You work at a housing complex(I think)and own rentals.You are witness to levels of butchery that we all are all to familiar with.Your home is 60 years old and have a 15 year old boiler.Your addition is piped with 3/4" CU supplies(for steam no less) and some rads are vented and some are not.So we've hit the Wall............pun intended:)

Your mind is spinning.Dont know where to turn.Well sir madhouse you have come to the right place.Don't pull the sawzalls ,hammers and dumpster yet!!!!!!You came for answers and @ this place you have the cream of the crop for steam.You need some time(right time of year),patience,an open mind and some $$

First off call this man........he knows his steam!!!

Palmer Heating, LLC
Ken Secor
License: 22-3557007
1044 Elm Terrace
Rahway, NJ 07065
Phone: (732)388-1794
Fax: (732) 388-4632
Email: palmer.heating@verizon.net

Second take boiler pros advice.Seek your cooling needs with a hi velocity system.Your window shakers may in fact keep you cool.But they do not even begin to address humidity.You can be cool but still be clammy.Address the humidity and sizing of the system is so important.As is with heating.A great man once wrote "The urge to oversize is greater than a mans sex drive":)You are right......there is alot of stuff out there.

I hope this helps and take my advice and call this man.Even if he isn't in your neck of the woods........he can be for a fee :)He and his crew are top shelf.And there is ALOT of sense in a bit of investment if what you already own will heat your home.Perhaps the heating bills are high because the nieghborhood butcher has been in your home;)

cheese

Steamhead

Madhouse, tell us more

about your system. If it has a vent on the "return" it's probably a two-pipe system. These lend themselves well to the use of thermostatic radiator valves (so do one-pipe systems but they need a different type) which you can use to keep certain rooms cooler than others and thereby save energy. Try THAT with scorched-air!

If I hadn't been away this weekend I would have said the same things the others did. You do not want to trash that system. Call Ken- he can work wonders.

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