pool heaters

jerry scharf_2

Hi,

I'm the one that posted it. It's www.apricus.com, and they look great on paper. I've decided to install one, but it won't be in for several months. Like ME said, if you're in a place where there is any significant hail the evacuated tubes would be a really bad idea. One of the greatest features of the system is that it can produce far better in cool temps, and may be able to extend your swimming season.

(I misread it as 12 degrees) 45 degree tilt will favor winter production slightly over summer, but it can still very well. The apricus importer said you really want a HX since the pool water would chew up the copper in their system. As Dave said, it's a whole bunch of BTUs to heat a pool, so you can really look at your heat loss and get a bunch of solar working for you.

As for the heat pump, I always thought you wanted to put the heat in the ground during the summer and pull it out during the winter. If that's right, you wouldn't want to steal the summer heat for the pool.

best of luck,
jerry

J Matthers_2

Pool Heaters

About to put in a pool for the wife and kids. I've got the boat ...she wants the pool... fair enough. The pool contractor supplies Hayward pool heaters and has qouted a Hayward 350H series (350,000 btu's). In the company sizing litature they show a 250 (250,000 btu's) as being large enough for for the 18' x 36' pool (648SF of surface area). Is there a reason he may spec a larger unit? What are my outher options for heaters (Propane)? Hayward looks like a good company but I have no first hand experience.

Murph'_5

Dave tolt me

They were going to use an electric Heat pump for his new in ground, makes some sense !!




Murph'

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Ken_8

The calculation of how many BTU's for pool use

is fraught with whacky math and uncertain elements e.g.,

1) Do you want to heat the pool quickly rather than just leave it on 24/7? The answer makes all the difference in the world as to what size heater is appropiate.

2) If you have a high efficiency house boiler, a simple HX may be added and since the boiler would typically have no home heating "load" during the season the pool might be in use, could be a very inexpensive way to heat the pool!

3) I don't believe Hayward makes a heater. They "brand" stuff made by Teledyne or similar boiler maker. Many times putting the word "marine" or "swim pool" on a crossover product like a brass bolt or stainless piece of hardware will triple the price without any basis of real differentiation. Pool heaters may be of that ilk as well.

4) Pool heaters are generally terribly innefficient - compared to viable alternatives - like solar and using an existing house boiler and simply installing a HX to the pool. Of course logistics like pool and filter distance from the home's boiler come into play.

I urge you to consider all the options available before buying any pool heater. The area of the country you live in, night time temperature drops and the period of months you want to use the pool have a huge impact on what you do - and how you go about it. Make sure whoever does this for you asks the right questions to know what he's looking at.

One size does NOT fit all.

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[Deleted User]

StaRite

We sell and installl pool heaters. Unlike sizing a furnace or boiler for a house, pool heaters are not dependent on sizing to maintain efficiency. The bigger you buy, the quicker the response time. My 20 x 40, 30,000 gallon pool has a 400,000 btu heater. It takes 55 degree water to 89 degrees in about 24 hours, and then shuts off. The other thing to consider is that pool heater manufacturers aren't much on new technology. They pretty much have stayed the same as far as the burner/heat exchanger part of the machine. They have started to incorporate digital thermostats and displays, but that is about it. StaRite makes a pretty neat heater. It uses forced air combustion and a cupric nickel heat exchanger and capron headers. It has a digital control that can give you lots of diagnostic info, such as exhaust temps, to determine if you have a scale build up in the heat exchanger over time. The control panel can also be rotated around the top of the heater to facilitate installation, so you can always see/get to the controls. Because of the forced air combusiton, you don't have the burner tray and pilot lights for mice and spiders to invade. I would go with the biggest unit I could afford, propane or natural gas if available. Be sure you plumb it with a bypass arrangement so you can divert water around the heater if there is a problem with it.

Constantin

I'd consider solar heating

For pools, it can be an extremely cost competitive way to heat them. At the very least, it'll reduce your heating load significantly.

Another thing I don't quite understand is why it's not kosher to hook up pools as a zone to residential heating systems (at least that's what they told my mum in ME). With a Plate HX's, a glycol loop and all that the whole things should be pretty straight-forward, no?

[Deleted User]

Cover the pool

The biggest issue with saving money on pool heaters is the evaporation of the water from the pool surface. You will save up to 70% of heating costs just by covering the pool when not in use. An automatic or manual pool cover is a great choice. A solar cover will help, but if water gets on top of a cover, evaporation takes place and the pool cools off.

J Matthers_2

one question brings ten

I'll check out Sta Rite. A new solar exchanger was talked about on the wall a few weeks ago. I didn't bookmark the site. If anyone recalls what that was can you repost it. I heat and cool with geothermal and had thought about using the pool water as a heat sink during cooling season. My wife whacked me over the head and said "Keep it simple". I do need to put in a back up and supplimentary heat sorce for the Geo and had thought about a Munchkin for that and the pool but the pool contractor and the building inspector both advised against that. I don't understand why.

Dave Yates (PAH)

operating costs

We hook up a lot of pool heaters for a local pool installation company. The owners tend to use their pool heaters until they receive their first actual-read gas bill.

If your average depth is 5', then you'll need to add 202,228 Btu's to raise the water 1 degree F & that's without the heat loss from the surface being taken into consideration. There's roughly 1,000 Btu's in a cubic foot of natural gas (in our area) and most pool heaters operate in the 80+ efficiency range. If you haven't done the math yet, I'd urge you to crunch the numbers so your're not shocked by the bill when it arrives. If your gas co operates like ours, they only read the meter every other month & estimate the other month's based upon past usage. We've had customers just about have a heart attack when their first actual read meter bill reflects two months of high pool heater usage.

Solar installation cost can pay for itself rather quickly when compared to operating costs of fossil fuel systems.

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J Matthers_2

That's my feeling. See below

J Matthers_2

solar

I have though seriously about solar. I have tried to keep this house on the “green” side with the geo. Had looked into the photovoltaic shingles (cost to high) but with 700 square feet of south facing roof on my garage at a 12/12 pitch it would be a perfect spot for a low profile solar collector. Any suggestions?

Ken_8

I am amazed that...

anyone with a geo system would be thwarted by a "KISS" directive!

The geo system begs for A/C sinks and you have around ~20,000 gallons of heat sink begging for heat.

This, my friend is what those of us in this biz would call...

A HOMERUN!

Using the pool as an A/C heat sink is as good as it gets. Get a contractor who looks at what you have with a big smile and sees the symbiosis involved - then ask him to quote the best possible system he envisions.

Fawgettabowt the pool heater. The geothermal has "best option possible" written all over it!


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Tony Conner

I'm Not Sure...

...evaporation is the problem so much as just the surface area of the pool. You can think of the water surface (of an inground pool) as a heat exchanger. Like the envelope of your house, you don't necessarily WANT it to be a heat exchanger, but that's just the way it is. The one thing that you must have for heat exchange is delta-T. No delta-T, no heat exchange. Watch what happens to the heat loss from an uncovered pool at night, when the air cools off, as compared to a hot sunny day, when you're probably gaining heat. After delta-T, the next most important thing is the surface area of the heat exchanger. The bigger the pool surface, the more heat exchange capacity you've got. Wind is also a factor. The Burnham Heating Helper has a section on pool heating that is excellent.

[Deleted User]

Solar by the numbers

Depending on your location and weather, you will need 75-80% of your pool surface area in solar panels. Each square foot of panel will produce 1014 btu. The approximate cost for your pool will be about $6,000. Factor in a pool heater at about $2000 to $2500, that buys a lot of gas. I wouldn't even think about using your existing boiler, it is probably not big enough, pool heaters start at 150,000btu and go up to 400,000btu.

J Matthers_2

solar

Thanks, I’ve got lots of options running through my head.
• Put in the pool heater and pay for the gas.
• Cut the cost by putting in an auto cover. Not cheap but high on safety value as well.
• Use my 5 ton geo unit to heat the water on start up which coincides with the end of heating season and the start of cooling season. There would be valves galore but it would work. As the pool gained heat I would lose the efficiency of the geo unit for cooling. 80* water vs. 55* ground water.
• Go solar which, as you point out would be a long term payback and not as effective in the early and late months of the season here on the east end of Long Island.
• Since I need to install a back-up heat source for the geo unit anyway, install something I can use for that during the heating season and the pool in the summer. I only need backup heat on days the temp is 20* or below. Additionally, I am going to improve an area over the garage and the third floor attic space and will need additional BTU’s for those areas.
• Dedicate a second geo unit to the pool and the garage loft. Heat the loft in the winter and use the pool as a heat sink during the cooling season.
• Just put in the gas pool heater and pay for the gas.
I just hate to have a heater sitting there during the winter doing nothing when I could put it to work – or – be discharging heat to the ground while cooling my house when I could be using it the heat the pool.

Perhaps a modulating unit with a flat plate heat exchanger to heat the pool in the summer @ 350,000 btu’s and take care of the back-up heat during the winter @ 100,000 btu’s. Of course then I need to decide where to put it!

hr

Hey Mike

what brand of panels do you use for pool applications? Are they tied directly to the pool water or do you use a HX to seperate? thanks

hot rod

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Matt Undy

I'm not a refrigeration engineer, but I think that if the condenser is sized properly and the proper controls (a TXV i think) are put on it to keep it form condensing too well in the 55 degree water, it can dump to 80 or 90 degree water without a problem. I think this will be more efficient that going to air and possibley to water. If you can dump the heat to 95 degree air than 80 degree water shouldn't be a problem since the specific heat of water is so much more than that of air. Maybe i'm missing something with the size of the compressor required to push the heat into the pool water vs the ground water. If I've read everyone else's posts correctly, your biggest problem is that the AC heat will only be suplemental, you will need some other source too. Has anyone looked into insulating a pool to reduce heat loss?

I think there is a savings to be had in using it as a sink over the air for AC, not sure about compairng it to geothermal. What about insulating the top surface of it in winter and using its contact with the ground as a source of heat in the winter(assuming it isnt' insulated on the bottom). Thats a lot of ground contact.

Matt

Matt

J Matthers_2

Matt, My thoughts as well. I was going to talk to the pool guy about insulating the sides. Kind of like insulating the edges of a slab for radiant. I haven't been able to find any info on using swimming pools as heat sinks for heat pump cooling. It just seems to make sense. Yes I will need to supplement, but as I say, I need to put in another heater to supplement My geo for cold cold winter days and to size something smaller to take both loads would be a winner. I'll keep trying or maybe I'll just experiment

Kal Row

i researched the net - and mike is right

sta-rite is the best

the only problem ever reported was a sticking combustion fan after a hard winter - and easily solved with with a little nudge

below is the owners manual link - a quick read will show you that there is an aufull lot thats right with this unit

http://www.sta-rite.com/pdf/S396(1-17-03).pdf

and here is a link, for a rough comparison of prices, just for a ball park figure, the local installer will have to charge you more - because it's part of is income system and because he cant produce the volume discount the net can - nevertheless - you should buy from the local installer - but DO check his references - there can, at even the same price, be, day and night differences, to the quality of service provided!!!
http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.com/pool-heaters.htm

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Swimming Pools as Heat Sinks

http://www.toad.net/~jsmeenen/pool.html

Note that "if your pool is too cool or shaded during the summer..." statement at the very beginning.

"...expect temp rise of from 1° - 3° per day..."

"...heat losses usually limit temp to around mid-90s..."

Not sure where you're located, but around here pools start stabilizing with the summer environment at around 77° - 81°.

I'm not completely certain about this, but I believe you can raise the temperature somewhat without heat loss increasing to the same degree.

A 25,000-gallon pool has about 208,000 pounds of water. Say you dump 35,000 btus of heat 12 hours per day in the summer--you've added 420,000 btus per day or the potential rise of around 2° per day. Something tells me it might be surprisingly easy to wind up with a big hot tub that's not quite hot or a swimming pool that is no longer refreshing. I believe 78° or so is supposed to be the ideal water temp on a warm, sunny day.

J Matthers_2

thanks, looked at the site. The system (geothermal) could be valved so my cooling reverts to ground water once the pool set point is reached. My concern is, unlike conventional ac with a refrigerant to air heat exchange, I am already refrigerant to water and as I heat the pool I will lose efficiency rather than gain it.

[Deleted User]

Solar Panels

We recommend Fafco.com. 12 year parts and labor warranty. I honestly discourage solar. Too many problems with simple things like, leaky roofs, because the guys that install solar units don't know how to keep a roof water tight. They just screw it down, and the leaks come down the road in a few years. It also looks like a mess, white piping all over the place, etc. The guys are talking about using heat pumps to cool the house and heat the pool. Hey, it doesn't work that way. You are heating the pool, long before you are air conditioning. Here in Iowa, we heat the pool in May, when night temperatures are 40-50 degrees. Who is going to air condition their house then? Once you get that pool up to 89 degrees, cover it with a good cover, it won't take much to heat it. By the time June rolls around, you won't heat at all, just swim, while everyone with out a heater is waiting for the water to warm up, maybe by July 4. Ah, so much for the rant....

hr

I agree Mike

by mid June my pool is already getting too warm here in SW Missouri. I actually end up adding cold well water to make it comfortable. I'm not following the AC connection at all when the pool is already to hot when cooling season comes around.

For the job I am currently bidding she has a dead Teledyne 175,000 LP. Wondering if a Munchkin or MZ, since I don't need modulation, with a Triangle Tube pool HX may be a better bang for the bucks, after looking at solar in the 6-8 K range?? Thanks for the suggestion.

hot rod

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Kal Row

you need a pool heater - unless the HO

is prepared to see the boiler run like forever

a reg boiler with hx, will never keep up with 60gpm+ load

a pool and heater is a luxury item - you are selling comfort and speed - not economy - which is always a loosing battle

go with the sta-rite Max-E-Therm 200 and if you have the gas line for it, move up to the "333" it's only $200 more,
and will heat almost twice as fast

keep it simple - unless you are looking for aggrevation

try http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.com/pool-heaters.htm