scary munchkin

Randy Tibbits

I had a service call on a munchkin that was installed by another contractor. It ended up having an very dirty flame sensor. I cleaned it and now the unit operates. However I was checking the system out and noticed a few things. Its a m199 model. There is'nt a boiler pump to maintain flow through the boiler. There is three system pumps, two taco 007 and one taco 0011. Maybe there is enough flow with these. I would have had a 0011 as a boiler pump. I noticed that the boiler is being operated in "constant fire" cycling off limit with no wwsd. I can't see this as a good control stragedy for this type of boiler. I think the boiler burner should only operate when a zone is calling. The copper piping on the condensate drain has corroded away in only one and a half heating seasons. The building is overheated even when the thermostats are turned down. There is not a quality air eliminater. There is a auto vent and a 1 1/2 x 3/4 tee that goes up to an iron expansion tank. I'm going to propose pump relays with a dry set of contacts for operating the boiler. Redo the condensate line with plastic and a slimline condensate pump so the rubber trap is'nt cocked up. I'm thinking about a B&G IAS and a taco 0011 pump.Should the IAS be installed on the primary loop or the boiler loop? The system pumps are on the return side. Any other thoughts on this? Am I all wet on my observations? I think the way this is being controlled is resposible for the crudded up flame sensor.thanks

Mark Hunt

I'd like to see


some pics of that mess.

Sounds like a "wall of shame" photo op.

Mark H

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Mike Kraft_2

Bummer.................

That just ain't right.Is there a manual nearby?Sounds like you need to do some changes.

cheese

Dave Yates (PAH)

sounds like

the original installer used the instructions for a knee pad! A copper condensate drain?!? Somebody doesn't know condensate or else they're trying to kill off tree roots(G).

Sounds like you're on the right track. Adding the Vision control will help too.

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Josh M.

You know.... I am always looking for a good knee pad!... Just kidding.

Mi39ke_2

Manual Hell--Gardening at Night

The installer just probably got an old manual or it is an old install.

I think I have at least 3 or 4 early Munchkin installation manuals, all with different piping diagrams. It became an obsession with me...see the Rep, get the latest manual! Kinda like pruning the vines in the dark. Ouch.

Heck, I think I even installed one the way the manufacturer had drawn it, even though it went against everything I had learned.

Michael Ward

marc

munchkin problems

why are there so many posts on munchkins with problems, i am thinking on installing. the comments on the wall have me thinking to stay with the big V. far superior product. not much on the wall about Viessmann problems. lots of good posts about V. kinda like buying a geo metro vs. mercedes benz. marc.

chuck shaw

please call us

at the HTP tech support office. We will answer all your quesitons, and more if you want to listen.

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Dept.
Heat Transfer Products
1-800-323-9651 ext 942

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Mark Hunt

Read the post!!!!!!!!!!!

It is about an idiot installer, NOT the boiler.

Sheesh!!!!

Mark H

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Randy Tibbits

I've installed a quite a few munchkins. I've not had a problem with any yet. Yet meaning anything mechanical [V included] can have a problem.The problems I've seen have always been other installers not following the manual. Following manufactures installation guides are a cheap form of insurance. It tee's me off because I lose work for being more expensive. I end up making money on the install anyways but then the equipment gets the blame. I hate to say this but I'm going to. 80% of the problems with an install is installer created. This can apply to forced air, hydronic, plumbing etc.

DanHolohan

.

Matt Undy

installers


I have heard a lot of stories about installers talking people out of condensing equipment and higher efficiency AC equipment more becasue they didn't understand how the equipment worked than an economic advantage to the somewhat less expensive equipment. One of them condemed a furnace because it was 20 years old and had a bad fan controler(it wasn't opening on temp drop some of the time) then recommened it be replaced with a 80% instead of a 90+ because the 90 wouldn't last as long. I guess when you replace equipment because a $50 thermostat failed they might not last as long. Michigan's heating season is long enough and NG prices high enough to warrent condensing.

Another contractor tried to tell me I didn't want to put my AC on an interuptable service. It cost me about an extr $30 for the service, it is almost never interupted, and the cost per KWHr is something liek $.07 vs $.12. The AC load would put me in the high band energy cost, the seperate srvice keeps me in the low band and gives me the even lower price for the ac power. No one asked about my cooking habits in sizing the AC though the contractor I went with came up with the same size my calculations including a cooking load came up with so I can cook and still keep the house cool. If I went with one of the othr 2 bids it wouldnt' keep up with my cooking.

Matt

Constantin

ARGH, read the post, part II

The brand has nothing to do with the install quality. You can muck up a Vitodens just as well as a Burnham, Slant-Fin, Weil-McLain, etc. No piece of equipment is idiot proof, installers have to use their cerebal cortex just like anyone else working on highly-technical equipment.

HVAC-Talk used to have a nice thread on a botched Vitodens install. That thread is no longer extant, it seems, so I can't point you to several pictures of hilariously bad plumbing, a soaking basement, and a Vitodens in pieces. Who knows what caused the thread to be pulled off, I found it quite instructive. My guess is that the HO who is suing the first installer probably thought it would be wiser to collect first, vent later.

Anyway, I've just about had it with the HTP bashing. It's one thing to expose a common flaw, if there is one, it's another to automatically discount a piece of equipment because it's selling at a lower price point that the competition as you have.

For example, my wife and I own two cars from separate German car companies. Her car cost much less than mine, yet I have a hard time finding good mechanics I can trust, while her dealer has been excellent with respect to every issue that has surfaced. By your logic, it should have been the other way around.

Frankly, I'm still scratching my head how a minor accident could deprieve me of my car for four months because 2 parts could not be sourced for 2.5 months each. So much for an efficient supply chain! Try telling one of your customers that a common injection-molded piece of plastic that was being installed into cars at that moment could not find its way into the repair/spare parts network of the United States.