Boiler Decision

John_44

I'm in Connecticut and we are looking at two proposals for electric to oil conversion: one for a System 2000 and the other for Buderus.

The installation will be direct vent for Buderus and power vent for System 2000. Both have 80 gal indirect HW and we have an approx heat loss of 70,000 BTU. Four Zones. About the same cost.

One installer is saying that the System 2000 is quieter, more efficient, and works better in a non-chimneyed installation. He says there have been problems with Buderus direct vent.

The other installer is saying that power venting is not the way to go, Buderus is better quality, and Buderus direct vent is powered by the burner (which he believes is a better method).

To say the least, I am in need of opinions. Both are good companies but I would like to make the best choice.

Any help would be appreciated.

John

Tom Stayer_2

Boiler choices

Take a look at mzboiler.com and view the FCX. This boiler is a lot simpler than the Buderus, but of the same quality.
The FCX is an oil fired condensing boiler with a 76mbh capacity. One can also vent the unit vertically or horizontally.
If you have high and low temp needs, the FCX is already built with dual temp supply; DHW high temp, and radiant floor low temp.

Tom Stayer_2

Boiler choices

Take a look at mzboiler.com and view the FCX. This boiler is a lot simpler than the Buderus, but of the same quality.
The FCX is an oil fired condensing boiler with a 76mbh capacity. One can also vent the unit vertically or horizontally.
If you have high and low temp needs, the FCX is already built with dual temp supply; DHW high temp, and radiant floor low temp.

John Jr

John, I only install radiant heat and use Viessmann, De Dietrich, and Buderus boilers. I have not used the System 2000, but have installed allot of Buderus boilers with Riello burners with direct vent. The problem with this method is the installer has to know what they are doing. I have been installing Buderus for 8 years now and have had only a couple of design defects with a card they used in the BF burner (Direct Vent)but that has been fixed. I hope this helps.

lchmb

opinion

Just a note John. I have installed and serviced a number of system 2000's and find them to be of excellent quality. A company I worked for previous had installed hundred's of them and the first they installed a number of year's back is still in service and still saving the homeowner money. Both in my opinion (Buderus and System 2000) are excellent unit's and will take good care of you in the future.

Rudy

buderus or system 2000

It seems that there is a big differance here. This is cast iron buderus against a steel system 2000. which will last longer I would say the cast iron it has always held up over time. yes, I do think buderus is better but with alot of good reasons. LIKE....... buderus has no chamber to fail it dosent need one. the back of the system 2000 will crumble every time it is removed to be cleaned and that is part of the chamber (the heart of the boiler). You have to be a contractor and selling system 2000 to get any parts for them. ANYONE can call 1 800 buderus and get any help they need andparts are plentifull. the buderus after many cleanings looks like new and the support they give us is above and beyond that which is the norm. The control with direct vent that had a problem was fixed. This was another manufacturers burner problem and buderus made sure it was fixed right. The new way is to vent with the burner this works the same way but with less parts(less parts less noise)and it works great. The system 2000 would need a power ventor this part would get loud over time and fail from the heat of the flue gases. Both systems work to save you money by controling the water temp ....... (burn less by not burning). This would make alot of the systems water cooler than most boilers can handle. The buderus will handle cold water without rotting the boiler out. I know of system 2000s that had holes in them because of cold water. I have worked on alot of the boilers out today and I think buderus is built the right way and made to last. PLEASE PLEASE look at the boilers and you will see the differance. The buderus is made for cold water and radiant they have a web site too. They make a complete system for total comfort. buderus.com good luck hope this helps.

Rudy

Rudy

boilers

look at the differances, the buderus is better. system 2000 is steel not cast iron. most steel boiler do not last as long as cast iron. Have the salesman shown you the insides of the system 2000. the chamber is very fragle and can fail that is(The heart of a system 2000).the buderus dosent need a chamber they are made to a higher standard. The salesmen should have gone through this with you about the quality. All boilers have had problems, the key is how do they fix them. The buderus company stands behind the products they make. The direct vent was fixed and was improved. This is what makes them better. We all make mistakes, it is how we learn and improve. Some boiler manufactuers would rather own a race car or give out jackets than fix their mistakes but buderus puts the money back into the products and improves them. The venting ???? both vent styles work but the power ventor is a fan in the wall of the house blowing the fumes out. this will be louder than a direct vent. Was a heatloss done? Did they spend time with you to find out what you wanted? It sounds like the buderus man is thinking what might be better for you. Queiter, cleaner and less repairs. Hope this helps.

Rudy

buderus.com

check it out

todd s

My choice

is the Buderus. If no chimney is able to be used, then direct vent with the burner is my next choice. If the burner has a failure with either system, you will end up with no heat. If the powerventer fails but the burner is ok, you end up with no heat and possibly higher repair costs. Make sure your service contract covers the powerventer(my guess is it won't). Either way you go, the installer is the most important variable. As far as noise, the powerventer will be louder.

EJW

Buderus=No powerventer

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

Buderus radiant wall panels

Check out the thread titled Buderus Wall Heating for more info.

Mark Hunt

www.buderus.net (nm)

Mark H

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DaveGateway

just say no to power venting

An EK-1 might be quiter until you power vent it. I'm not a fan of their pricing for a plain glass lined water heater tank and flat plate heat exchanger. Get the Buderus with the Logamatic controls.

leo g_13

mellow

that's casting a long shadow from a low light. i have personnaly worked on steel boilers that are nearing their fortieth birthday, and they are still clean and strong. this garbage about cast and steel makes me laugh. if you install either one wrong, they will fail. if you install either one properly, they should last a lifetime. JMHO

leo g

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Paul Pollets

Power venting oil...

PV for oil requires a good design and the expectation of the fan noise. Atmospheric venting is preferred. I've used 4" Pellet Vent with the Buderus unit and Riello burner and it works great. If the proper draft conditions aren't met, the appliance will foul and plug. Condensation could also be an issue. I always use a 4 way mix with the Buderus and radiant, and the 2107 control with mixing valve card. Buderus makes a more reliable appliance than the System 2000,IMHO. The G115's are easy to clean with the front hinged door.

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Paul Mitchell

We install EK systems all the time

and are extrememly happy. The company is extrememly good with support and anything you need. They have never dissappointed us. They are located one hour or so from us in NJ. If you had the ambition you could probably go to them and get a tour.

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John_44

Thanks for all your help. This gives me alot to think about. As I mentioned I am comfortable with both installers. One has done plumbing work in my house and the other has a very good reputation. The installers have given me references and I will be checking them out. The power venting is probably what would tip me in the direction of Buderus. If I had a chimney, it would be a tossup.

Thanks again.
John

Rudy

if installing ceap steel how smart can you be. you must only look at cost. the steel that is 50 years old is from the war. this is so thick you can't cut it apart. today you can't have thick steel boilers or the heat would take too long to heat the boiler like anyone looks at that. LOOK AT THE FACTS ..... ..................this could go on forever........I give .

Leo

Boiler Choice

Well I work for an oil company and have worked on both. I have installed the Buderus. A few things, this is like comparing Ford and Chevy. To powervent or not is like a standard transmission vs an automatic. Get the picture we could debate this for a week. Who is going to service this system once it is in place? Will they, can they service it? Not all service companies are created equal. Make your choice by what is easily serviced in your area and by the installing company. Do you feel comfortable spending your hard earned dollars with one over the other, that is the key.

Good Luck on a tough decision,

Leo

sean_4

oil p v

if it is at all possible build a chimney,and avoid power venting an oil boiler however possible,the money you spend now on a chimney will be much less than that spent on installing, operating, maintaning the pv and the boiler it's attached to.

leo g_13

mellow,

thanx for the compliment! of course i care about price. i try to bring the best system to my customers at WHAT THEY CAN AFFORD! the same company that produces these steel boilers has been around for more then 50 years. their product and service is great! FACT!

i could buy a yugo and drive it for 50 years if i took care of it, but because this brand is not expensive that means it is crap? c'mon!

it is not the material mellow, it is the product, installation, and the company that stands behind its product that counts! FACT!

and let's not forget, that in a weird way, steel being lighter then cast, tends to help the enviroment by using less fuel for the distribution of the product.

leo g

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Tundra

Given your two options I would choose the Buderus. It is not just cast iron but GG-20 cast iron. This gives it protection from thermal shock that a regular cast iron does not. The setup on a 2000 gives you a CO2 of between 9% and 11% if you go much over that you will burn out the chamber. If you get the Buderus with the riello option I would expect a walk away from CO2 of 12%. Buderus is also coming out with a Heat Wise option which I expect will give you a walk away from at 13%. An increase of CO2 by 1% equals one percent in efficiency. I will not argue which boiler is quieter on the first day of operation, the difference will not be significant. After a year or three your power venter will start talking to you. It will continue to be more vocal untill you change it or it quits totally.

Rudy

steel

Just a note on the life of boilers. The steel boilers tend to have problems the cast iron don't right? The companys want something to last for the cust. and not have to change the boiler more often. The cust. can't swing a cast unit for a few bucks more so lets sell steel and have the cust. expect the same life and service from it RIGHT. The best way I found is to tell the cust. at the start that they are going with a product that will not last as long as cast. this is tricky but can be the best way to go. Most boilers over the years have been piped the same and with all the mistakes the cast is still there when steel is long gone. I have seen first hand the abuse the normal well maintaned boilers go through and it isn't cool. I feel that cost is an excuse to use steel to get a JOB. Most everyone has " money stuff" going on but if given a choice they want the better unit and will find a way to get it (Have you seen what we have? cars, boat, houses, wives and girlfrends). I have shown people the boilers and even without knowing anything about them they can spot quality. I would not condem steel it has its place but to say it's the same as cast or better is like saying that a YUGO IS A PORCHE. The cars might both have fins but are not the same. happy trails

leo g_13

rudy

i have seen cast boilers as well as steel that are gone within 7-10 years. your post supports what i said, it is in the install. done right, steel will last 40 plus years. look at the "designer" rads from europe. most are steel!
the afue on these boilers are the same. the cost in reality is maybe a couple of hundred bucks different. not enough to effect the winning bid. i just find this rumor that cast is so much better then steel to be incorrect in my experience. and for people to say that i am cheap, or less of a designer/installer because i will use steel is just blatant cow dung! i will stack one of our steel installs up to anyones (including our own) cast installs anyday!

leo g

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DaveGateway

The System 2000 concept is great

Steel does give up it's heat quicker then cast iron. So the Sys2000 post purging the hot boiler's BTU's into the DHW tank is a great idea, but a Tekmar boiler control will do this for you also. Also their use of a plain water heater with a flat plate heat exchanger is a weak point. I'd prefer a low mass steel boiler like the Laars DMAX and an inverse indirect like the ErgoMax or Dunkirk Artesian with Tekmar controls. Same concept with better components.