Radiant Injection stations

Vinny baga doughnuts

I am setting up for my first radiant job (its actually my own home). I do a lot of heating work, boilers, baseboard etc. My favorite boiler is Buderus by oil w/ Riello burner.

My supplier tells me I need injection stations for the
hardwood floor area. This seems like an expensive way of
doing it. Why not use a thermostaic mixing valve with a
plain old 007 Taco? Its almost 1/6 of the cost. I have
heard of hardwood floors buckling and I do want to avoid
that.

Does anyone know a more cost effective way of doing this
with similar results.

kevin coppinger_4

injection is a ....

very nice way to go and it will give you very steady,even heat...maybe better for the hardwood since you won't get a hot shot to the zone at startup. A good mixing valve (sparco,Taco5000) will work and it will cost less . One way to over simplfy/state it would be to say that if injection is 6 times the cost of a mixing valve then injection will be 6 times more comfortable.

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Jay_5

Mixing required

Radiant floor water temperatures generally operate at temperatures below the condesation point on most boilers (appox 140F). If you are using an oil cast iron boiler, the boiler requires to operate above this condesation point otherwise damage to the boiler occurs. That is one reason why a mixing device is needed. Secondly an electronic mixing device can operate on outdoor reset which makes the radiant floor heating more comfortable with less temperature swing and reduces fuel usage.
An electronic mixing device can be a variable speed injection pump with control or a 4-way mixing valve with actuator and controls. For more information see attached PDF or call tekmar at 250-545-7749.

J

hydronicsmike

Kevin

you must be comparing Variable Speed Injection Mixing plus Control with a Thermostatic Type Mixing Valve, right? That I can see being more expensive.

But I don't really see a Variable Speed Injection System costing you more than a Mixing Valve and Actuator. Leaving the Controls righ out of the picture, because you would use them in either case, whether it is Variable Speed or Floating Action Mixing.

For smaller systems, it may be more six of one and half a dozen on the other. There it becomes preference and personal opinion. Some like Variable Speed Injection and others like Mixing Valves and Actuators.

For larger systems, Variable Speed Injection becomes actually quite a bit cheaper than Floating Action. The bigger the Mixing Valve, the (much) higher the cost difference. Where Variable Speed Injection can provide Mixing for systems as large as 1 to 1.5 Million BTUhs, given the right parameters, using just a single wet rotor circulator.

Just wanted to clarify that for those who aren't as familiar as you with Variable Speed Injection.

Regards,

Mike

eleft_4

This is an option

Jed_2

Gee, isn't that

teh "old, obsolete" Tekmar control, where you have to mess with dials and reset ratios? Nice module and instructions, but today's VSIM controls are all digital, not analogue. Just set temperature parameters, and the control does the ratios.

Jed

Mike Kraft_2

Hey bagga doughnutz:)

Ifn' your using a Buderus................check out the 2107 control.If your running one temp you can reset the boiler temp.Run the indirect with priority.If you have several temps you can buy the mixing valve card.(its a plug in).Check out www.buderus.net.As far as flue gas condensation,the 2107 control has "pump logic"it will stop heating until the boiler water temp is safe.Control is straight forward.

cheese

ALH_3

Value

With a 3-way mixing valve you lose the outdoor reset function that you would have with the VSI control.

You get a lot for the money when you buy a tekmar 363...dhw priority, outdoor reset, pump relays, improved boiler temperature control, pump exercising, etc.

If you're installing a combination system consider the tekmar 364.

A high temp pump, low temp pump, and zone valves is all you need for most average sized homes. Obviously it's a little more complicated than that, but reset controls offer you a lot more versatility and adjustability than 3-way mixing valves and pumps.

marc

design of system

why are you guys letting the wholesaler / supplier design your system. we fix so many of these systems, and who is to blame. you cant blame the contractor ( this stuff is easy ) per wholesaler. just some tube, boiler, pump. what a joke. the wholesaler needs to sell and thats it and stop trying to be a heating contractor. if you have to let the supplier tell you how to do it you are in need of some schooling, professional advice. not from the guy behind the counter. does anyone else experience this. marc

eleft_4

Radiant Injection stations ....Gee,

You might be partially correct. The new control does basically the same with the added feature of a minimum floor temp limit so you can be more precise with the warm weather cut off. This control, if it hasn't been upgraded, changes the start point of the heat curve by the changing of warm weather cut off setting. So does the new one.

As explained to me, at NAOHSM, by the Tekmar rep.

al

cruizer

In response to...

"Gee, isn't that teh "old, obsolete" Tekmar control, where you have to mess with dials and reset ratios?"

Yes, that is the old Tekmar Control that was specifically designed for Weil-McLain's IPP. Weil-McLain's new IPP II's have the new digital Tekmar Control.

Jed_2

Marc

You must not have avery good Wholesaler. I don't think anyone should approach the counter guy for a design analysis. That's not what he's there for. If you have had problems with systems designed by counter guys, I'm not surprised, the contractor didn't know enough to go beyond the counter. Most good Wholesalers have people who's JOB it is to be competent in radiant, or any other, type design. If not, we have access to the manufacturers design services. But, in the final analysis, the guy beyond the counter can only provide as complete and accurate a design as the information he is given. That is up to the Contractor. It's a two way street.

I do agree that any serious Contractor should Invest in the time, money, and brain equity, to become a competent designer also. But, criticise all you want, all aren't going to do it. There are many Wholesalers who have staff not solely interested in the Sale. Reputations and Integrity are at stake, not to mention jobs. It is a resource maybe you don't need, but a good Wholesaler can and will stand behind a design.

Jed

eleft_4

jed Quick question

Quick question...have you ever seen the W/M ipp ?

al

Jed_2

al

No, can't say that I have. I was just basing it on the current state of mixing controls by Tekmar. I don't deal with W/M. More of a Taco guy, with Biasi, Smith, Thermo Dynamics. I am excited about the Taco RMB. Am waiting for powered contacts capability from Tekmar,also.

Jed

kevin coppinger_4

yes Mike....

thermostatic mixer...an actuated type of mixer is much more $$$...especially at 1 1/4" and up. He said he was trying to reduce costs and this is one way....kpc

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eleft_4

Jed,



Once you tweak it performs flawlessly.

Be open minded and check the price on W/M, Taco, Danfoss and building your own with the Tekmar control you speak of.

Let us know your results.

al

steve gibbs_2

Taco i-series mixing valve

The new i-series mixing valves from Taco may be a good alternative to a full injection mixing system in this application. These valves come in 2 or 3 way with either outdoor reset or set point. We just received these and haven't used them yet but they definitely have some great features.

Jed_2

al

I wasn't questioning it's performance. Those controls performed flawlessly for years. I just would've thought W/M would use current versions. By the way, I'm not a Contractor. I work in the wholesale side. I now see from another post they've updated.

Jed

eleft_4

al