heat transfer plates

Dave Faust

I've read John Siegenthaers very illuminating article in PM magizeen, "Shakeout Time". I've also started an underfloor radiant project, but perhaps shot myself in the foot. Can transfer plates be used when there are already billions of nails from the hardwood floor protruding from the subfloor plywood or do they need to touch the bottom of the floor? Is there a difference between the tubing touching the floor & being just under (2") the floor?
Thanks. Newbie Dave

Dave_22

uh-oh!

Bust out the grinder or a cut-off wheel!!! Yes- there is a difference between tubing touching the floor and just hanging in the bay. High water temps needed, slower response time and lower output for BTU/Sq ft.

ScottMP

went out and bought one

every couple of months I go down in the basement and start grinding. Its a grind ;0.

I figure in about three years I'll have the whole first floor done.

BUT, I'll have a nice warm house and floor

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jed_2

Nails

I wonder how much better the heat flux will be with all those nails and plates?

Jed

hr

The very first

step would be to perform a heatloss calc for thr room/ building. only then could you know exactly how much heat needs to be transfered.

Transfer plates are always a big plus, in my mind. but systems can and will work without them.

It's the btu/sq. ft. load that you need to determine.

Grinding, clipping, bending, trash talking nails is a thankless job. It needs to be done to get the maximun performance from a transfer plate install.

Gear up properly for "the grind" safety glasses, long sleeves, hat, ear plugs, and a hose of fire extinguisher are "musts".

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Boilerpro_3

Take a look at Watts Radiant

Their tube is flexible enough to wind around the nails protruding from old floor...alot easier than grinding nails. It attaches directly to the subfloor with no plates. If you need higher outputs just increase the center to center spacing. Output is much better than suspended tube, not as good as extruded plates, unless maybe dropping to 4 Inches Oc. Hot Rod has some nice thermal images of how it compares to pex tube installations.

Boilerpro

Troy_3

Rubber

If you want some nice black rubber- make me a deal. I'm ripping out 2000' I just need a disclaimer signed. NO warrentee. Otherwise it will be in a landfill somewhere. Oh by the way it was installed on 4"centers. If you want to remove it you can have it for Free.

Boilerpro_3

Why the tear out and whose is it?

Bad design, incorrect install (fasened tight every 6-8 inches), incorrect building insulation, excessive floor coverings?

Just wondering? There are lots of folks here with loads of Watts EPDM installs that are working beautifully.

Boilerpro

Troy_3

Rubber

Fastened every 2',stapled to subfloor. Installed on 4" centers.Driven by a geothermal heat pump. We design for 115deg. when using geo. I actually bid on this system 3 years ago to be installed in gypsum concrete. Local wiz was able to save the homeowner money by installing rubber under her floor. Poor design in my book. Local rep. designed it on rubber design program that says sure it will work. Poor homeowner is stuck with improper heat. Rep. says- well must be bad info my program doesn't lie. Contractor says- I just did what rep. said I could. I say- I told you so! Home owner has so far talked 4 friends out of radiant. Four friends that may have spent the money to do it right. Yes I'm angry. And sick of hearing these false claims only to be not backed up. Where is it written that a rubber hose has greater output than pex at any temp? Where is it written that pex and plates won't outperform a garden hose in heat output as well as life expectancy. I'm sick of this political correctness. This should stop. This industry won't reach it's potential until someone creates a standard to be adhered to. If the manufacturers, Reps. and contractors that design systems don't stand behind their designs then how can the public have any confidence. I was told a Rep. or wholesaler will never be made liable for a bad design. I hope you contractors understand that. Learn your trade. Don't believe the BS of over zealous marketers. Learn what works and don't compromise! Nobody wants to save a couple dollars and hear "put a sweater on when it gets cold" Sorry for the rant. I'm calm now.

kevin coppinger_4

can you just add....

some supplimental heat...panel rad or baseboard, etc.? kpc

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

My adice

would also be to grind off the nails protuding through the floor. It is a noisy, dirty and smelly process but will be well worth it in the end as far as comfort and output. Be real careful (safety glasses of course) and be sure to grind them up into the wood so there is nothing protruding below the floor. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics and Burnham Radiant

radiant_4

Troy,
After looking at our info, come up with any good ideas? Let us know please.

Unknown

that's a really cool

little animated gif you have there. should be more "active" demonstrations of installation techniques like that out there. kudos.
_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Boilerpro_3

Did you say 2 feet On center?!!!

If you did that is probably the problem. If its Watts Onix its supposed to be fastened every 6 to 8 INCHES! Oh and BTW, if its ONIX, and its not too far away I'll be glad to take it off your hands. Where you located?

Boilerpro

Unknown

Thanks Rob

Just a small part of animations and movies that I have developed as part of our training programs. Little things like this a certain worth a thousand words. If only we could install an underfloor weave as fast as the animation does!

Glenn

Mike Kraft_2

Hey Boilerpro....

Troy said............

Rubber



Fastened every 2',stapled to subfloor. Installed on 4" centers.


Sometimes we see what isn't really there:)

cheese

Boilerpro_3

Fasteners need to be every 6 to 8 inches, not 2 feet

> Troy said............

>

> Rubber

>

>

>

> Fastened

> every 2',stapled to subfloor. Installed on 4"

> centers.

>

> Sometimes we see what isn't really

> there:)

>

> cheese

Boilerpro_3

Yep, but FASTENED every 2 feet....

was what I was referring to. Looking at my post now, I wasn't very clear. I doubt any softer tubing could provide adequete heating for heavier loads when fastened that far apart. Oh course if it is plain rubber tubing, it's probably got to go. A couple thousand feet of Onix for free, on the other hand, would be real nice. Thinking of adding radiant to my first floor. Classic old house subfloor full of protruding nails.

Boilerpro

Michael_6

landfill

Troy,
I am with yo all the way!!!

Rojoho_2

Glenn,You make it look so easy!

Glenn, I like your graphic, but could you explain how to pull that tubing through two holes so easily in practice. Alan Forbes and I have discussed this and he prefers looping the tubing under the joists, which I'd rather not when there's a living space/finished ceiling below.

Unknown

It involves

drilling 1-1/4" holes and holding your hands close together while pulling on the tubing. Once you get enough through, the tubing automatically does a flip and increases the pulling radius so the tubing won't kink. Believe me, I've had my share of kinks, but after learning things the hard way, I find that keeping your hands close together eliminates that from happening. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Mark Hunt

HR


You said what counts most.

Do the math.



Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"