Build up inside Radiant copper return

jhp625

Bear with me, I need to totally explain this job.
We were called out to service a very new (no more than (2) years old) horse-stable radiant system that was not working. The system has (3) Taco zone valves,piped in 1/2" copper and(3)loops (all we can find). Heat source is a 66 gal electric water heater. It is very obvious that the installer had just enough knowledge to make a mess of things. The system was running on house pressure, no backflow prevention (has anti-freeze), one Taco 007, 1/2" copper feed serving 5'8" Wirsbo, potable expansion tank and no air elimination. When our technician tested the pump, he found it locked up. Sold a repair and when he pulled the pump he realized that the system was totally air locked and the pump failed due to lack of lubrication. He they proceeded to check the water heater and found it was empty down to the top element. Sold a semi over-haul which included converting to 12 psi system, backflow, Spiro-vent, new elements, (3) purges (none installed before)new anti-freeze, but no alterations of existing loops or zones. Everything was going fine until he cut into the returns to install the purges. Inside the pipe is white, hard, build up that is closing off more than half of the flow. I can only explain it as something like a solidified glue. He found it only in the return lines which and as he got closer to the Wirsbo it cleared up. I have the pipe in the office and I have not seen anything like it.

George_10

Send us a piece of the pipe with the lining.

We will take a shot at it and see what you need to do clear it. Interesting detective work.

Rhomar Water Management
PO Box 229
Springfield, MO 65801

Attn George Hunt

jhp625

The tech has cut out what he could find. However he is not sure where it originates or if it is inside the loops. Will send you piece.

jhp625

Sorry but this is the clearest I can get the pictures
John Peterson

jhp625

This is the best I can do for a picture.
John Peterson

George_10

Looks similar to a pipe we have in our gallery

We will need a couple of oz to do the testing.

Ken_8

There is a highly scientific word for that stuff...

It's called "schmootz" in our area.

Looks as if the system has leaks and that is calcium carbonate build up.

That's a guess.

If George at Rhomar can't find out what it is, nobody can!

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hr

The only way

to get that much build up in such a short time span would be a system with leak and continous make up water being fed. Or some incrediably hard fill water. Check the water source that they filled from. You may find some 30-40 grain hard water!

Pull the bottom element and have a look.r

If that build up is hard you may need an acid based cleaner. Soap based cleaners would be a waste of money. I'd blast out as much loose stuff as possible, first, else you will be on a long acid trip The copper should be able to take pressure from a pressure washer connected.

Bottom line, find the cause before you treat the symptom, or it may haunt you forever. Pressure test those loops overnight, maybe.

Happy hunting

hot rod

hot rod

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Ken_8

Water that is liquid concrete

Take a look at the attached.

400 PPM calcium carbonate. Public water supply.

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Unknown

Yum

A new flavor of Stromboli . Was the whole system that gooked up ?

Ken_8

This was in Plainfield NJ.

From the municipal pumping station. That was about the first 100 feet of copper potable hot water from the tube bundle in the HX from the boiler at an apartment house.

We since installed a water softenor and it actually "stripped" the remaining calcium carbonate from the portion that only had minimal restriction.

One of my new employees took the 100' of scrap to the bone yard, put it on the scale and got paid for pure copper weight. I went back a week later and returned 80% of the cash he paid us in error.


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Ray Landry

No air elimination?? BRILLIANT!

Here's a thought, what if the glycol that was in the system ate away at the dip tube in the water heater? May explain the sludge...

jerry scharf

a question about DI water for fill

(this seemed somewhat realted to the thread)

Hot Rod,

You have mentioned several times about using deionized water for boiler fill.

Around here, DI water usually means distilled water than has then been run through a microfilter and a 2 pass ion exchange system. They use it for chip manufacturing, and it isn't cheap. On the other end is the units I see that have maybe 95% ion capture capability and are maybe $500 for something that will produce 10-15 gallons a day.

How do you get your DI water and what price are you paying roughly?

thanks,
jerry

jhp625

All very good imput. The problem was only observed in the return piping, and got worse as it got closer to the water heater. Tech believes that there was some sort of anti-freeze, but nothing he had seen before. With this installer it could have been auto. The system was closed with a ball valve and did not have constant make up water. However I did forget to include the water source is a well. Water in this area is 5.8 - 6.2 PH, iron is less than .5 and the hardness runs around 4 gr. We had recommended tratment for the water but they were concerned about the 22 horses. This might seal it. Tech is being dispatched today to check dip tube and test the loops. Sample is being sent out today. Thanks for the ideas.

hr

DiI, DM, distilled, RO.etc

they sometimes get lumped together. I buy mine right from the factory, actually back my truck right to the machine that produces it. These folks call it DI (deionized) which is a large three pass softner looking machine. Although I have seen small (lower capacity) portable machines. I believe Thorton Plbg in SLC has a portable they use for all their boiler fills.

I'm not exactly sure how DM (demineralized) differs, if it even does, from DI. the "I" usually indicates an ion exchange process as softerners use, where the sodiumion is exchanged for the calcium ion. I think different providers call it different names?

I do know distilled, true distilled, is made by turning the water to steam and collecting the condensate. A slow and expensive process. Some homeowners buy small counter top distillers, takes all day to get a gallon! My supplier does small 1 gallon containers for steam iron use sold at supermarkets, alyhough he claims lots if that water is sold as distilled is really just filtered, as it is less expensive to produce??

RO is different again, as it squezes water through tiny membranes. Again slow and wastefull with approx 3 gallons down the drain for every 1 gallon in the tank. It gets used for portable carwashing companies for spot free cleaning at the dealers lots, often.

Water at WalMart and other on the spot systems is usually a multi carbon filter and often RO in one machine. This strips smell, bacteris, and just about everything, leaving pretty bland and tastless water. Some say it actually pulls minerals from you body if you drink a lot of it?? RO usually leaves you with low ph and cannot be handles with copper piping. Never run RO water to an icemaker in 1/4" copper, I learned!! Luckily the tube ran through a crawl space where the pin holes did not damage anything :)oe

Purifing water, depending to what degree, will often lower the ph. Generally you cannot use straight DI water and you need to blend a small amount of tap water, for boiler fills. Always check the ph of the filtered water you buy. This is the best way to see how "filtered" it really is.

If I buy 55 gallons at a time ( my barrel) I pay $.07 a gallon. In 5 gallon jugs I pay $.10

Pre blended glycol, from a manufacture, is blended with DI or DM water they tell me. However the inhibitor package added, brings the ph up to the 10- 11 that most glycols test at out of the bucket.

Still learning but this seems to be how it's done around here

hot rod

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

reverse osmosis and copper

is there anyway to add p.h. to the water after the r o filter to protect the copper? bob

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George_10

Our treatment product

raises the pH of a system to somewhere betrween 8.0 and 9.0
It protects many metals including copper.

But to insure there are no surprises, we highly recommend that all systems are thoroughly cleaned before treatment with our cleaner.

Our web site www.rhomarwater.com covers the cleaner Hydro-Solv 9100 and the treatment, Pro-Tek 922; in great detail.
Both of these products were formulated for hydronic systems.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

thanks, George

for your quick reply. I'll forward your info to my customer. bob

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jerry scharf

DI is not a water softener

hot rod,

the water softener exchanges other positively charges ions for sodium. A deionizer exchanges all the ions, including sodium for hydrogen and hydroxide ions, which combine to water. It's a 2 or 3 pass process through specially designed resin columns.

It doesn't take much to move water from a pH of 5 to a pH of 9 or vice versa. You need a well designed buffer that will keep the water in the right range as minor chemical reactions occur. (A plug for George.)

The comments about purified water leaching minerals from the body is overblown. Any water will leach chemicals from the body, and in all but the most severe cases it will be easily covered by the diet. All the same, I drink municipal tap water. I also don't think that increasing the sodium in my water is the wisest thing.

jerry

hr

Agreed Jerry

the machine my supplier has is a three tank filter, (no brine tank) so I imagine it goes through a multi media process.

I'm not sure about the RO water leaching minerals from the human body, sounds a bit far fetched to me also. Although drinking a fluid that can eat through copper concerns me!

I'll stick with my well water run through a point of use carbon filter. If it's not broken, don't fix it is my drinking water motto

hot rod

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Scott25

calcium?

This really doesnt sound like a calcium issue. Calcium has reverse solubility (the hotter the water the less calcium can stay in solution)so the sludge on the return makes no sence. If it was a cooling tower removing heat then it sounds feasible, but in a radiant system I dont buy it. Maybe its a different problem and I would look at the "antifreeze issue".

Calcium usually is not an issue in a closed loop hydronic system as long as it doesnt leak. Corrosion is the primary concern and there are many products available in your area that can handle that.

Scott

George_10

This was a detective story

The white build up in the copper pipe had the following chemical makeup. 39.4% phospherous, 23.0% potassium and 26.2% aluminum. Very little trace amounts of calcium or magnesium. We believe the water heater has an aluminum anode. The other two major components, we are still trying to figure out. This is as unusual a buildup as you will ever find. We believe the anti-freeze ate up the aluminum.

Now you guys know what we know, so any other ideas.

Larry Weingarten

anode

Hello: It might be a good idea to check the anode too! Replacing it with a magnesium rod will reduce the volume of new corrosion byproduct. Is there a check valve in the line to prevent backflow from the bottom of the tank? That would prevent "stuff" from leaving the tank.

Matt Undy

Auto Antifreeze

Was the fluid the color of auto antifreze, green or red? Auto antifreeze contains coumpounds that coat the components, espeically aluminum, to prevent themfrom disolving in the hot water. I believe they are silicon coumpounds but they may be phosphorus. Part of the coating flakes off and is replaced by more in solution with every heat/cool cycle of the engine. This is why antifreeze in a car needs to be replaced at regular intervals. (I may not have the chemistry excat but its the basic idea). If you put it in your heating system I can see how it would clog things up with the spent corrosion inhibiters.

Matt