Thermofin U vs. Warmboard

Constantin

So, the demo is done, the house has been lifted 5', and the excavators are about to pull out now that the former basement is completely gone. Presently, the house is levitating 15' high above the bottom of the excavation pit... all 65 tons (with steel). So, we're definitely making progress and sub-system questions are starting to crop up.

I wrote to Radiant Engineering regarding the Thermofin U product since I'm very much interested in using it. However, they have not replied... and I'd really like to know whether Thermofin U can deliver 25 BTU/sq ft/hr with reasonable water temps, 3/4" thick hardwood above and perhaps a throw-rug.

The reason I am considering Thermofin U is that I'd like to keep the extant subfloor, yet use 1/2" PEX pipe on 12" centers so that it would replicate the pattern of warmboard elsewhere, one loop per room (max 225 sq ft ea.), reduce head pressure, etc. The combined Thermofin/Subfloor combo is thicker than Warmboard, but nothing we have to worry about terribly - it's simple enough to install a threshold in the affected areas.

So, can Thermofin U with 1/2" PEX on 12" centers deliver 25 BTU/sq ft/hr? Would the water temps be very high? I'm going to insulate with foam to R11 in the joist cavities below, even though the joists are above conditioned space. Any insights would be appreciated.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

I'm looking

at a chart from Radiant Engineering called, "Above Floor ThermoFin Output at 8" O.C., ¾" subfloor with ¾" plywood sleepers".

The R-value for ¾" maple is .66, so if you check the chart where R-value of 1 and 25 BTU/[] intersect, water temperature is 160° and the floor temperature would be 84°.

You're pretty much max'd out on water temperature, so if I were you, get that spacing down to 8" so that 1) you get the proper output and 2) you won't get striping (alternateing hot-cold-hot areas on the floor).

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Closest Radiant Engineering data I have:

Finish floor: 7/8" hardwood (Junckers Compressed Beech), r-value = 0.735 (r-value of ¾" Oak/Maple floor given as 0.68)

Immediately below floor: 1/8" Junckers Polyfilt vapor barrier.

Immediately below vapor barrier: Either the fin OR 1/16" airspace from the thickness of the fin. This is for type "C" fin--type "D" should be VERY similar.

Below the fin: ¾" plywood sleepers to allow space for the tube.

Below the sleepers: ¾" plywood subfloor.

---------------------------------------------------

To get about 25 BTU/hr/sqft with 12" centers, you need water at about 165°. Max floor surface temp about 90°, min about 69°, avg about 79°. Max BTU output with this construction is 34.42 @ 200° supply.

For same output with 9" centers you need water at about 140°. Max floor surface temp about 83°, min about 71°, avg about 78°. Max BTU output with 9" centers is 44.95 @ 200° supply.

For same output with 6" centers you need water at about 123°. Max floor surface temp about 79°, min about 75°, avg about 77°. Max BTU output with 6" centers is 61.07 @ 200° supply.

For same output with NO fin on 6" centers you need water at about 180°. Max floor surface temp about 84°, min about 73°. Max BTU output with 6" centers NO FIN is 29.06 @ 200° supply.

Note that construction shows NO insulation below the subfloor. HOWEVER, air temp below the construction is not specified.
-----------------------------------

Note the rather high surface differential temp with the 12". Personally, I'd opt to decrease plate spacing.

Mark Eatherton1

Just curious...

why the 12" centers? Are your floor joist actuallly 12" OC?

BTW, try pick@radiantengineering.com That WILL get you some answers.

ME

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Constantin

No particular reason...

...other than trying to keep the loop lengths within the length limits. The largest area that has to be covered is about 225 sq ft. I originally chose 12" centers to be akin to the 12" centers to be used in the concrete in the basement. However, there is no reason to stick to that spacing just because we're using it in the slab below.

I now see that 9" spacing would be a much better option.

A 9" tube spacing option appears perfectly reasonable, considering that the largest room is about 225 sq ft. If my math does not fail me, a 9" spacing would result in a 300' long 1/2" PEX loop. IIRC, that's at the limit but still acceptable for 1/2" ID PEX, correct?

Thanks a lot for the e-mail address. I will attempt to contact it if I don't hear from them in the coming day.

Constantin

Thanks Mike!

I think we'll stick to 9" spacing, which will deliver the goods and keep loop lengths below 300'. Thanks for digging out the info!

hr

Actually 8\" oc

works out nicely with 16" oc joist spacing, and packs a bit more tube in.

I've done 4 projects with Warmboard and it does perform as they say.

Both have pros and cons, check both carefully and see which best fits your application.

ThermoFin does allow a bit more creativity and allows you to vary spacing as per load. Nice for shower walls and ceiling/ wall radiant also. WB would be over kill for ceiling and wall

These IR pics show all the methods driven by 130° temperatures. ThermoFin and WB perform very closely.

hot rod

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Dale Pickard

Hello Constantin,

I apologize for not getting back to you immediately, the fellow that usually answers our website mail has been on jury duty, and I haven't had a chance to get to it myself. However, I am pleased with the responses that you have gotten from these two chronic wall crawlers. I only have a couple of things to add.

The numbers that Swampy and Alan are quoting are quite conservative. They are based on FEA studies that we undertook many moons ago. The assumptions that went into the model were conservative to create results that were dependable in the field. It is important to provide this kind of bracketing, given the extent to which the results from heat loss/gain calculations, FEA computer models and the like can differ from the real world. Since then, we have learned that we almost always get better results than we originally projected or thought might be possible. You will too. (Swampy, results you are looking at were produced using the assumption of no heat loss down, ie infinitely effective insulation)

The study done at the University of Kansas used our plates below a single plywood subfloor. (no finish floor). The ThermoFins were installed 8" oc and operated with 140 deg F water temps. The measurements were taken after equilibrium. Our plates were "clocked" at outputs as high as 50 btu / ft2 at steady state.

There is too much emphasis placed on simply providing enough heat to carry a thermostat set-point. With radiant floors, how that heat is delivered is very important.

We don't recommend 12" spacing because the floor is not uniformly heated. You can raise the water temperature to carry the thermostat set-point, but only at the expense of uniformity. As you decrease the tube spacing, you will increase the uniformity and decrease the water temperature. Non uniform floor temperatures portend all kinds of things for radiant floors and the materials of which they are made, none of them good. We strongly recommend reset controls so that temperature uniformity over time is also achieved.

8" spacing provides an appropriate economic optimum for most applications. We have recommended spacing as close as 6" for the 4" wide plate.
Many of us have experience with the excellent heating performance that we get from gypsum pours. I can safely say that for a given tube spacing and water temperature, the ThermoFin plate will outperform gypsum. Unlike gypsum, the plate temperature remains very uniform even at high heat flux. This kind of performance is due to the plate thickness and the conductivity of aluminum. By contrast, gypsum and concrete do not conduct well. At wide tube spacing, the material between the tubes becomes much less involved in moving heat to the surface.

The Warmboard product, by virtue of it's more complete coverage, will produce excellent uniformity, at least at outputs in the lower range of what might be typically useful. However, as the output increases, surface temperature uniformity will decrease. Relative to the ThermoFin, the aluminum in the Warmboard (@ .025" thick) is 2.5 times thinner than the ThermoFin (@ .0625") and more importantly, (with respect to temperature uniformity) the tube spacing is fixed at 12". The Warm board is a fine product that would likely also fill your needs performance wise if it is otherwise appropriate for your project

I hope this helps.

Dale Pickard
Radiant Engineering Inc.

Dale Pickard

U Fin photos

I thought folks might be interested in these photos of a system currently being installed by one of our local customers. He is using the pre cut plywood return bends that we are now providing. They help keep the layout clean and on schedule. They also help insure that the system doesn't make expansion noises from the proximity of the tubing to the wooden parts.

The returns are cut from Birch faced plywood which is a true 3/4". The straight pieces were cut on site from nominal 3/4" CDX subfloor which actually measures 23/32" which compensates for the thickness of the ThermoFins.

Installing the UFin in this way produces a nice dry, flat nailing surface. Ideal for hardwood. The aluminum gives the tubing some protection. The long extrusions and the return bends make it easy to create a clean parallel layout.

Dale

Constantin

Thanks!

Dale,
Many thanks for the two posts here and the info you sent me. I really appreciate it! I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond sooner, RCN in Arlington has had some serious service disruptions in the last week... ARGH!

Anyway, are the pictures, specs above for a 1/2" PEX installation or for 3/8" ID? Also, how would my contractor go about ordering the bends, given that I did not see them spec'ed on the site. Should he simply call you guys? Cheers!

jerry scharf

why is the plate side down

Dale,

Are the plates mounted with the aluminum on the bottom to make the sleepers easier to install? That sure has to be a bit of a penalty compared to warmboard with the aluminum on top.

thanks,
jerry

Michael_6

warmboard

Try using the Raupanel by Rehau. Easy install, you can keep your existing subfloor and extremely low water temperatures with high output.

hr

A question, Radiant

do those panels get screwed down, or fastened any way? Have you run any of these systems through a heating season?

Looks like some serious aluminum, I wonder that those fin legs would make noise as the plates expand and contract?

I spoke with a Rehau person at the Vegas homebuilders booth that was going to help me get a sample for some testing. I'd like to install and IR camera an install with them. Nothing yet.

hot rod

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Dale Pickard

On plate postion

Hello Jerry,


It is common-sensical to think that the heat output rate and/or response of the radiant floor to the room will be increased when the tube and the conductor plate is closer to the floor surface. However it' really only true to the extent that the conductor plate is thermally broken from the balance of the thermal mass of the floor.

You can install the U Fin with the channel facing up, conductor plate on top, just like the Warmboard, and we have several customers who choose to install it this way. Doing it this way does not increase heating system perfomance as much as one might think.

In both cases, the underside of the plate is in good contact with the sleeper panels, or in the case of the Warmboard, bonded to the substrate. While plywood is not concrete, there is some substantial thermal mass in a typical wooden flooring assembly. The aluminum alone, which is denser and holds more heat than concrete, adds a great deal of thermal mass to the floor. When the system has been off for some time, the floor mass comes to an equilibrium temperature with the room; when the system has been on for some time the mass of the floor is at equilibrium with the heating system, and the room.

On start up, as the mass in the floor heating system is brought to an operating temperature, the plate moves heat into everything it is in contact with, upward at a rate no greater than heat is moved downward. If the floor is well insulated underneath, with a constant water temperature, the floor will reach an equilibrium at which mass of the floor is charged, losses downward from the plate are limited and all of the heat loss from the plate into the floor system is lost up, where the load is. The mass of the floor is the same whether the conductor plate is above or below the sleepers.

The sleepers and the subfloor have to be charged before more heat is moved to the load. Thicker heat transfer plates do help responsiveness because the plates are not overwhelmed, (moving heat down as well as up) as the floor temperature is ramped up to equilibrium.

The Rehau extrusion and the Roth insulated aluminum panels are different in that there is a thermal break between the plate and the sub-floor. The plate has only the mass above it to heat, (immediately), which it can do more quickly. However, something to note about this arrangement is that the undersurface of the heat transfer plate is not available for heat transfer. So when it comes to figuring rate, (a x u x dt), you are only working with half of the potential area.

The UFin, embedded into the mass of the flooring materials can perform better than the CFin installed below the floor where it can only work (by conduction) with half of the potential plate area.

We recommend that the ThermoFinU be installed this way, (insulated from the substrate), in walls and ceiling applications, ie long ThermoFins mounted across the framing supported by foam (3/4" foil faced iso-cyanurate) sleepers. The heating system needs to be thermally isolated from any exterior building framing. We have used the ThermoFin U to retrofit concrete floors by Hilti nailing wooden sleepers through 1/2" foil faced iso-cyanurate foam placed on top of the slab. Again, the heating system wants to be thermally isolated from floor slab.

So to sum up, the real issue is more related as mucch to how much thermal mass the plate sees, as it is to the position of plates in the floor sandwich. Placing the plate closer to the floor surface can improve the rate of heat transfer at steady state, (because the resistance above is less), but doesn't really decrease the time it takes to get to steady state if the plate is in contact with all of the mass in the floor.

Having said all this, I don't think that "responsiveness" is really important. We are strong advocates of reset controls and constant circulation. We don't think that radiant floor panels should be operated like forced air systems.

Also, to some extent, when a building is under load, especially strong load, I think that it is the "charging" of the thermal mass in the building that is partially responsible for the reputation of "extreme" comfort that radiant floor heating enjoys. All radiant floors radiate to walls and ceilings and glass and store heat in their mass. This creates a flywheel effect which acts to dampen and even transient and peak loads.

This is very different than forced air systems or hot water systems that move heat by moving air and have little access to the thermal mass of the building.

I think that radiant floors are much more effective and useful, and appreciated in cold climates. In warm climates, the ability to move heat into the mass of the building is less desirable and the pre-dominant cooling loads result from the removal of moisture from the air.

Dale

Dale Pickard

On practical installation

We usually recommend that the ThermoFin U be installed with the channel and the conductor plate facing down. The reason is that this installation is much easier, especially for the other trades.

The FinTube can be placed first, on an open subfloor. The 8' long extrusions allow for a clean layout with tube runs that are parallel to each other. This makes the job of the carpenter much easier as she is able to simply measure and cut sleepers to fit between the FinTubes. They don't have to create the tube layout in wood.

It is easier for the heating installer to make the serpentine tube loops with the continuous lengths of tubing than it is to create a long continuous slot in plywood especially for the carpenter. More importantly, installing it this way, channel and plate below the sleepers, produces a flat dry nailing surface, which is especially friendly to finish flooring installers who don't have to fasten through the aluminum plates.

I see this as something of a detriment to the rehau style plates which are nice and thick, but don't present a good fastening surface to the flooring installer. She wants to see a nice thick fibrous wood surface with some screw and nail holding power. The Warmboard, with it's much thinner alumium surface and solid wooden substrate is much friendlier in this regard than the Rehau panel or Roth panel with air or foam underneath.

Dale

jerry scharf

when response time counts

Dale,

thanks for the information, it's exactly what I was looking for. Your point that the whole floor becomes the thermal mass whether you put the aluminum on top or on the bottom is one I missed.

The reason I like to keep the mass down has little to do with outdoor reset, steady state or recovery from setback. I too believe in outdoor reset and constant circ. When you have a room with a bunch of glass that is designed to pick up winter sun, you can fry the people if you have too much heat loaded up in the floor. The classic case is one where the windows are shaded and the room is calling for heat. 15 minutes later, the sun is providing more than full heat for the room and you hope that radiant surface can shut down. Since it's often the goal to use windows for passive solar, I have a less positive view of gypcrete radiant in moderate climates.

jerry

Dale Pickard

Good point

That's a good point Jerry. I think that to some extent that we are approaching the limits of what can be done with the mechanical system alone. Good passive solar design wants to see a strong integration of the architecture with the mechanical. The mechanical can't take all of the responsibility for accomodating the weather and changes in load, some of which are imposed by the imappropriate architecture.

Even air based delivery systems store heat in the mass of the building. These systems are dependent on "heat anticipators" and other funky means of dealing with rapidly changing conditions.

One suggestion that I might make with respect to "hot" water heating systems to deal with these issues is to implement the function found in most reset controls that allows an offset of the reset curve based on indoor air temperature.
Viessmann and tekmar, both offer these functions. tekmar's zone controls will select the "coldest" zone, that is the one with the greatest deviation from setpoint, to be used as the basis for a parallel offset of the reset curve. The other zones are controlled with pulse width modulation. This is a lot of control, more than most modest homes might need.

I think that tying these controls to a performance oriented delivery system can produce very satisfactory results.
Oh, we have to lean on those architects. What a pain they can be.

Dale

Michael_6

Raupanel

Hot Rod, Are you anywhere near the Boston area? We have four homes that have gone through two heating seasons and about ten that have just gone through this past season(that is complete homes we have many baths, kitchen,additions etc. also). We never nail or secure down our panels except on 6" center applications that have no 2" nail strips and even in that instance we just use a roofing gun to tack them into place. On the hardwood installs the pneumatic guns drive the nails and or staples through our panels or sleepers into the subflooring which is where it is anchoring. Yes, the sleepers (and panels)anchor the flooring but we make sure nails are long enough to get through the sub as well. On tile or carpet apps the 1/4" underlayment is screwed down in a minimum of 6" sqare pattern or tighter (which should be with 1/4"). In either application the legs are held down with some pressure to the subfloor and there is no movement or any noise all of are projects are silent. We even have a couple of places where our sleepers are srewed, the panels are tacked with roofers and the wood flooring was glued down. With todays adhesives there is also no movement.

Dale Picard has made some statements just from an observation, but it is truly annoying when somone writes something as fact when it is their opinion. True the hardwood nailers aim for the sleepers 8" centers is a nice tight nailing pattern but plenty of the staples go through the panels especially where butt ends fall or a pattern is being made. He has also stated that his U fin has more contact therefore more output. It is my OPINION having installed all of these systems that is not the case. It appears to me that there is much more output from the Raupanel where most of the energy through conduction is being transferred to the finish floor rather than equally up and down(Again my opinion but at least it is from a true life performance stand point).

I can't imagine that the Rehau rep would not send you the panels for an install and test. If they do not I will- I would love to see the thermal pictures and data you recover. There were different hardwood installers on each project a few were a bit leary at before install. All loved the system after saying it was not better or worse than a quik trak install over or gypcrete with sleepers what they each liked is the uniform temperatures over the finish floor and how low the operating water temperatures were. I will check back sometime next week to see if you respond however a quicker way would be e-mail me directly: michael@heatech.com

Dale Pickard

Touchy aren't we. ; -)

I think that it's pretty clear that my commentary represents my observations and opinions, based on my 15 years experience developing and working with these heavy extrusions. You are free to politely disagree with everything but apparent facts. I'm just trying to call it like it is. We can't go forward if we can't be real.

If one side of the plate is insulated, then that surface is not available for heat transfer, which may of may not be important. It's a factor to be considered before one decides that some given system or configuration is more "responsive" or offers better performance. That's all I said. I am quite sure, based on my experience, that the Rehau product works quite well, in most respects. Like anything else, it can't be everything to everybody.

After working with our UFin product in both configurations, plate on top or below the conductor, we like to see the sleeper on top because it makes it extra friendly for the flooring installer. With random length wooden flooring, you don't necessarily get to chose where a fastener is placed. We recommend designing the tube layout so that the direction of tube run is predominantly perpendicular to the flooring direction but some tubes inevitably run parallel to the lengthwise joints in the flooring. It's really nice if those joints are located on a wooden backer. The flooring installers that we have worked with are usually very concerned as to the quality of their own flooring installation.

The only fastener that I would expect would be useful fastening to a hollow aluminum plate would be a screw. Nails and staples are designed to be used in fibrous materials like wood and plywood. We don't recommend cheesy materials like particle board or MDF for under-layment.

Also, I think that is apparent that no fastener holds well when the materials that it's holding together are 5/8" apart, especially when it, (the fastener) is subjected to the substantial expansion forces that these heavy aluminum plates can put up when put through heating cycles.

One of the reasons that we like to see both sides of the plate used is so that heat is moved out of the tube into the flooring as well as possible so that temperature differences between the plate and the flooring are held to a minimum. The thickness or our plates, (and the Raupanel), will support high rates of heat transfer to both surfaces with low dts across the plate. It's almost a waste not to use them both if you can. As to the fasteners, we have seen screws subjected to some substantial shear forces with the long extrusions.

The Warmboard product requires fasteners to be placed through the aluminum sheet but it is 2/3 thinner than the extruded plates, or the Raupanel, and it is backed up with a solid plywood backer that will hold fasteners very well.

These are my opinions but I think that any hardwood flooring installer would agree with these preferences. We think that it is important to cater to these peoples needs so that the entire radiant floor project works out well, now and into the future.

You may think that some particular system is adequate for their needs, but frankly, it's not your call. Successful and useful product design will seek to accomodate the conventional or progressive practice of dependent trades rather than dictate it.

After years of dealing with the "staple up" phenomenon, we think that it's great to see players like Rehau advocate and validate these kind of heat transfer products, even if they are Johnny come lately. It's a very large market. Good luck to you.

Sincerely,

Dale

Michael_6

Dale

I'm touchy??? all I was responding to was your comment "they don't present good fastening surfaces"
You went on a rant about "cheesy materials" "fasteners in aluminum" etc..........

You also had to begin with enlightening us with your "15 years working with and developing these heavy extrusions". You do realize they are aluminum heat transfer plates (albeit very good ones)and not rocket science. Then to go as far as call the REHAU company "Johnny come lately".......Silly........ I am sure they will get a kick out of that one.

Anywho,the sleepers and return bends we use or I should say- the Johnny come lately company provides us with are plywood. The flooring is nailed off (and yes of course you are running perpandicular) to the plywood sleepers which are on either side of the transfer plate. This demands that they have a nail at least every 8" which is embedded into 11/2" of plywood. Realizing of course that the flooring is tongue and grooved (even if it were not) the flooring is permanately locked down as well as the plates. Any nail or staple that goes through the plates can not move or loosen with a floor nailed down such as this. Asking most any hardwood installer how often they nail they typically respond 12" or tighter (I've asked numerous) but upon checking in real life during an install they measure on average 14" or further on most jobs (I am talking without radiant). So making sure they nail every sleeper plus any extra they pound through the aluminum makes for a well secured floor. And yes, we are providing them with a perfectly flat and secure floor. I beleive that is why you prefer the sandwich because that is an objection we heard from an installer on a project with your shields on top that it was not "flat".

I happen to be just a contractor and while you have spent the last 15 years pondering aluminum transfer shields I've been out installing radiant systems. You mention what "they" need the hardwood installer, they are also just contractors and I am very aware of what "they" need. Of course you are going to get the ham and eggers who low bid all their projects as always and will gripe because the radiant will slow them down you will find them in any trade (Any good contractor who thinks it will take them extra time will put that to the consumer who then should pay it for a job well done). They are also the ones who will try to make up time thinking your going to work for free when they make swiss cheese out of your tubing. I have installed many hardwood floors myself throughout the years(a few over radiant) and communicating to the hardwood contractors on our projects how to fasten the floors is simplistic. The challenge is whith the average installer not even owning a moisture meter(which blows my mind!) and communicating to them that if the flooring is not at the proper moisture content it can't be installed that day and must wait until it is at proper levels.

In your other post you wrote that with your transfer surface on top (directly in contact with the finish floor)it does not "increase performance as MUCH as you might think". It is easy to break out each portion of a complete system and say well it isn't that much as in: direct contact with the finish floor, having more manifold ports and shorter circuit lengths, less pumps which are as small as possible, a boiler designed for low temp systems (VIESSMANN) etc........... However you take all of this an incorporate it into your systems and MUCH takes on a MUCH different meaning.

There a quite a few other things I'd like to touch on but that's enough for now.

Take Care, Michael

Dale Pickard

You presume to know too much about me and my company. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you, but we have been installing radiant floors and hot water heating systems longer than we have been developing extrusions. I have a great deal of hands on experience wth our plate products.

I was just answering the fellow's question about why we recommend sandwiching our plate below the sleepers. That's all.

Our UFin product is designed to be installed either way, and we have customers who apply it both ways. For all of the reasons that I mentioned, we came to think that placing the the sleepers on top of the plates represent a good set of trade offs. We used to think that there was some large performance advantage to having the plates as close to the floor surface as possible, but after getting experience with our product, we decided otherwise. We don't think that it's this simple.

We also came to think that there are significant advantages for the finish floor and for the flooring installer. All I did was try to explain this thinking. You seem to insist on taking offense where none is intended.

We think that performance differences, if any, are worth the trade off. You don't have to agree with this. Those who want to place our plate up are free to do so. We intend the UFin shape to be versatile.

I don't think that just because a flooring installer prefers to work with the wooden surfaces that they are used to and that the fasteners that they use were developed for, makes them cheap or low quality, or incompent installers or whatever you were implying.

Of course, these products will be subject to flooring installers that we less than competent and it's nice to have the heating system survive and tolerate these people.

All I was trying to say was that I think that I think that it's important to integrate the radiant floor as well as possible into the building system and to try to accomodate the other trades. You don't have to agree with this, either.

I'd like to take back the "johnny come lately" remark. It was uncalled for. I have a great deal of respect for the Rehau company and their products. I don't think that they originally designed their extruded product but I am sincerely pleased that they choose to validate and promote these ways of doing things.

It sounds like you are into using quality products and doing quality installations and I suggest that we are alike in these respects, maybe others.
I'm ok, your'e ok. Ok?

Dale

Michael_6

Dale, I do not presume to know anything, I was only responding to what I read. I have great respect for anyone promoting low temp., reset, above the floor systems I think that is great. I also believe it is important to integrate the radiant into the building system making it easy as possible for other trades. When the heating system is complete it is ready for the flooring and we leave them with a good solid surface to nail to. Our goal as a company is to provide our customers with the most efficient systems possible, thats all.

Take care and good luck.

DaveGateway

Heat Transfer Plate end loops

what do you think of filling the end loop areas with concrete?
BP

Dale Pickard

Good Idea

We have recommended that some gypsum or thinset be troweled into the returns. It helps the heat transfer and prevents expansion noise.

One of the reasons that we are providing the precut return bends is to minimize any chance of the floor making expansion noises. We have had some problems associated with the tubing rubbing against the wooden members at the end of the run. It's hard to produce a good return bend on site.

We have had zero problems with the UFin making noise that results from the tube rubbing against the extrusion. Because of the shape, the plate tightens it's bearing on the tube when the UFin is fastened down.

Our new ThermoPlate product provides a continuous grip on the tubing through the return bends as well as the straight sections. See photos. What you are looking at is 3/8" tube in an 8" return bend.

Dale

Dale Pickard

OK

Ok,
Sounds good. All those goals that we are trying to achieve is why we are using the "dry" radiant floor systems to begin with, eh?

BTW, I re-read your post and wanted to respond to the idea that The UFin floors are not flat when the extrusions are placed on top of the sleepers. That's true, as the plates are quite thick and it shows up.

For those who want to install it this way, (plate up) we are now providing plywood sleepers that are relieved to the thickness of the plate so that the plate is flush with the sleepers. We can also provide CAD generated tube/plate layouts to help make it easy.

Dale

Terry Alsberg

Warmboard

I am so happy to see our industry get it.
A radiant panel needs to do two simple things:
1) Conduct heat evenly and quickly from tubing to finish floor surface,
2) Integrate smoothly with other building materials and trades
Dale's product: Thermofin, Raupanel and Warmboard all share some similar
characteristics.
• We use aluminum to conduct heat, lots of it, instead of concrete, air or
wood..... duh!
• We have excellent tubing to plate contact for best heat transfer
• Our aluminum is close to the finish floor goods, thereby reducing
resistance above the conducting plate
• We are low mass, fast response systems
• We get high output out of low water temperatures
Where we differ is in how we integrate with other materials and trades.
I would argue with shameless self promotion that in new construction with
framed floors, we have no equal. Every framed floor needs a structural
subfloor and Warmboard is that subfloor and a high performance conducting
panel as well. Raupanel and Thermofin probably come into their own when it
comes to integrating into retrofits, an important need in the marketplace.
Having worked hard since 1992 to bring a high performance aluminum based
panel to the market place, I am obviously pleased to see the success of other
panels that incorporate similar thermodynamic concepts to Warmboard and
I am of course particularly pleased to see the dramatic growth of our
acceptance in the new wood framed construction segment of our industry.

Dale Pickard

Shameless ; -)

Hey Terry,

Of course, I'm in no position to get down on you for shameless self promotion, ; - )

I'm really impressed with the wherewithal I know that it takes to dream up, design, patent, work through the problems and bring a product like the Warmboard to market. I'd love to see it manufactured, I'm sure that I would learn some things.

These different ways of producing "dry" (sans concrete) radiant floors have different strengths. I am (somewhat) confident that the market place, (which is not always rational) will sort them out.

Dale