Manufacturers Rep. \"special lists\"

Unknown

I recently got word that I lost a BIG job that I have a considerable amount of time invested into. The reason that I lost this job was probably my own damn fault. I let the “homeowners Association” know that I am a small one man shop and they were concerned that the system I proposed was "too sophisticated and that no one else would know how to work on it should it ever fail." I responded in writing by explaining to them that the equipment and strategy I proposed was now common and that there were many other companies who would know how this system works in their area. I gave them the information and telephone number of the Manufacturers Representative. The Rep in turn gave MY customers a LIST of contractors to call and subsequently, the listed contractors bid against me on this job.

The winner of this job did not, nor do they ever intend to preform a heatloss on this structure as I had. They sized this six story, six unit high- end townhouse based upon the old boilers NAMEPLATE RATINGS.

The only winner here seems to be the equipment manufacturer which I sold the HO’s Association on. They LOVED the equipment that I proposed SO MUCH that they asked for the "same stuff" specifically through the other contractor. This is the TOP of the line equipment. I called my competitor and verified that they will in fact be replacing the existing equipment using the numbers listed on the existing nameplates wich are between 30-40 years old. What's that all about?

Do you guys think that I made a mistake by showing my prospective clients that I was not the only game in town?

Why do I feel so hurt by the Rep firm that I thought was going to be my partner in this and future ventures?

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser.

Gary

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Ken_8

Gary,

Did you give the Rep a "heads up" BEFORE you dropped his name to the board? Or did you assume the rep would tell them what you wanted him to?

If you didn't call and announce your intentions to the rep before he broadcast your compettitor's names about, you dropped the ball - not him.

If you DID mention your plans to the rep, please let us know who he is - and his address.

I knew I could find other uses for those hollow points we were saving for the dogs(:-o)



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Unknown

Mr. Secor,

Hi Ken,

Nope. I didn't even think to call and announce my intentions to the Rep. I assumed they would ensure them that there were many other installations within their area and that I was not in fact selling them a one of a kind system. I have had their outside salesmen on this job helping me with it. Maybe I dropped the ball here. I still feel a bit betrayed.

Save those hollow points;-)




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Mad Dog

Two things....................................

You did drop the ball AND you were betrayed. This is why I charge for estimates for many jobs especially big jobs with lots of time invested. I am very guarded with sizes and specs because I refuse-to-be-used (repeat after me) any longer. The people that want to pic your brain and take the lowest price need to be weeded out -they are a waste of legitimate contractors time and a vexation to your spirit. My opinion of the vast majority of manufacturers reps is very low. Remember, they are salesmen first, industry friends last. They usually have a cozy relationship with a couple of contractors to which they channel most of that brand's work to, even though they are supposed to be impartial. Bottom line, I wouldn't trust too many of them. Anytime I really needed them for anything, they just pass the buck. Tighten it up Gary and move on, you are a class act. Let them get the "heatloss-ala-boilerplate" guy...they'll be sorry. I had a very similar story 2 years ago. A local church I did aLOT of work for had a very large steam boiler to replace and a conversion to gas - big job for us....We had a proven track record with them, always gave them church discounts, and was always there for them. Now they need a bid. So, I spent at least 8 hours measuring, figuring, pricing. I gave them 3 options and was going to stage the boilers for fuel savings.....THE BOARD thought I was ridiculous, my price was WAYYYYYYY too high (I was @$39K and the other guys around 30K) The manufactueres rep pushed their boy and I never got the job. I was really crushed..........REVANCHE!!!!! They took the OTHER guy and then the winter came......By the spring, a friend of mine saw the sextant (church caretaker) who was "disgusted!" "why, my friend asked?" "WE just got our first gas bill....$14,000.00!!!!!!" Hey, you should've went with Triple Crown, your bill would have been half!!!!!
Yeah, but THE BOARD didn't like his price!!!!!" It ain't easy Gary when you are a straight shooter, but you will refuse-to-be-used again. Their loss. Your Friend, Mad Dog


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Ken_8

Mad Dog is

again, right on the money. You were betrayed - and a tad naieve.

One helluva hard lesson, but you may make some money off the other guy's problems yet. Don't give up.

We have done design-build work - lost the install (got paid for the engineering) and then made almost as much straightening out the installers boo-boo's. Life has a strange way of evening the playing field.

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Weezbo

Gary, It is a sad experience......

it is a kick in the slats as the Brits say. however,strengthen your resolve,look at the here and now as the best it could possibly be. that will allow you the chance to fully acept the hidden blessings that God has to offer in the matter. The observation that you got a raw deal while true isnt something that you can afford to dwell on,misery loves company at this momment isnt where to go,you know in your heart that you gave the very best you had to offer and then some keep steering your ship by accurate information and let the emotions go.
...remember the line that goes "For i am sure ,that He who has begun a good work with you will see it through to completion".....

Dave Yates (PAH)

happens here too

Frosts yer pumpkin! I once recommended a controls correction to a "customer" who then looked up the high-end control on line. He then gave the info to the so-called hydronics professional (see Siggy's def of a hydronics pro in the suspended thread - perfect!)who purchased this control from the rep. Couldn't wire the thing up, so the "pro" calls the rep who then drives the 1.5 hours (each way) to hold his hand and teach him how to wire the control.

The thing is, both the rep and "pro" missed the fact that the three radiant zones had nothing in their piping to move water through the floors(G). No secondary pumps! Just zone valves & with no restriction in the primary loop, the water had no incentive to take the much longer path of higher resistance.

Did it tick me off that the rep burned our sale? You betcha. I'd taken the time to attend training, along with paying for our mechanic's time to attend, for these controls. If I'd known they did drive-by-training, I could have saved a ton of money! It costs bunches of money in wages and lost sales for us to attend training. We won't be going back & there are other controls.

BTW, we ended up with the customer & we've done a ton of work for them.

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Phil_2

Manufacturers Reps

This street runs both ways. I work for a Mfg Rep, we run into the same problems, only with contractors. We work with an engineer or building owner to get our product specified, then a contractor will propose an "equal" that is lower priced. When we try to recover the order, all we hear is that we cost too much.
When we do pull in a nice job we have to worry about payment. Would you take a customer to lunch to get paid for a 60 or 90 day invoice and he takes the 2%, 10 day discount?
Most reps work on a 30 day contract cancellation clause. If the manufacturer doesn't want you to sell for them, they can cancel your contract with 30 days notice. Talk about pressure to perform.
We all have headaches in our businesses, I guess that's why they call it work.
My best to everyone.

Phil_2

Another thought.

Most rep firms have inside and outside sales staff. When outside salespeople are in the office, about half the time or less, they only want to talk to "their" assigned customers.
A call from a homeowner or association would go to an inside salesperson. Most rep firms are hesitant to recommend contractors just for the reason you stated. But, if they are specifically asked to do so, they will.
My advice would be to call your outside salesperson and ask him to visit the customer on a joint call. He could then explain the system to them and the problem would be avoided. I do this all the time.
I have made joint calls with a contractor and while still in the car with the contractor I will get a call from another contractor to visit the same job. What would you do?
Maybe we should ask Dan to weigh in on this one. He started as one of those slimy rep salesmen.:)

jackchips_2

Excellent

other side of the coin, Phil.

In the end we're all trying to make a living and some just do it more reputably than others.

John@Reliable_9

Manufacturers Reps = Salesmen (that simple)

Mad Dog

True Enough, Phil

If more people on both sides were loyal to who butters their bread, we wouldn't so much of this. I would feel terribly guilty if a rep spec'd out for me and did all the foot work and I didn't use their product - it ain't right. Ya dance with the girl that ya brought to the prom. Mad Dog

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Michael_6

Before any of you condemn the rep firm realize I am sure the homeowner association probably noted to the rep they were looking for more than a one man show. I am all for small shops but one man doing what he claims himself is a BIG job think about it.

Unknown

Live & Learn

To clarify this situation that had transpired between me and a Manufacturers Representative a couple of days ago, I wish to proclaim the following;

The Rep. has hosted me on a number of occasions without cost to me or my company with a COMPLETELY AWESOME factory training program. Without charge to me or my company, they have educated & enlightened me with their product line and hydronics know how so that I may better serve myself and my business. Also, with the help of one of their excellent outside salesman, assisted me with selling a job that was probably the largest project that I have ever bided on. They have done everything short of recommending me as an installer and I hope that with time they will see fit that I’m worthy enough & well qualified of a hydronics enthusiast to receive such benefits.

It certainly didn’t take long before I was called personally by the Rep to find out exactly what had happened. He was upset with the fact that I had broadcast my troubles here on The Wall without speaking to him first. (rightfully so) Without blaming, he was interested more in what could have been done differently and how to avoid this situation in the future. A true professionals response.

There is nothing positive that can come from blame. I blame nobody but myself for the loss of this sale.

Hats off to this man.


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Robert O'Connor_6

Thanks for your

insight Gary, I think a lot of us "small shops " learned something here.I think you have been professional about your postings.

Regards,

Robert

Unknown

radiant

"thinking about it"

Look,,, I never condemned the Rep. Please READ THE POST again.

I could have easily handled the job. I had all winter & spring to prepare. I've got pages & pages of documentation on this one. I did time at the factory training gearing up for this one. I was the one last winter who got the heat back on when it was DAMN COLD outside. I initiated this replacement. & enlightened the HO association of the benefits of condensing boiler technology. I personally know one of the homeowners. His son is a "Brother" to me. I sold this job. I could have done this job with my eyes shut. at this point.

Is this a weakness of being a one man shop?

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jwade55_3

As a Rep.

I cherish my relationships with all of my customers, and I relish the chances I have to help them with their customers. What I try to remind people is that I have a duty to do for the Mfg's we represent, which means being as unbiased as possible when it comes to recommending anything to anyone. This said I also will go to any end to protect the people who help me, but never at the expense of someone else.

The real mistake here seems that the Rep did not do his due duty, as far as investigating the project further, i.e. how did they get his name, etc. At this point some conversation with owner, contractor of record is called for. Also letting a contractor he recommended size a project this way, Boy lets think about that for a bit...

J

Jack_23

Sorry for a bad experience...

I've been in the rep business for 20 yrs now and prior to that worked with the tools and was a mech contr. In any business we all get screwed occasionally. The trick I guess is to try to limit your exposure. I think the way you do that is by establishing relationships and communicating.

I believe your mistake was in not communicating with the rep. DO NOT assume that the person will take care of you. You don't know who the board got hold of at the rep firm and without a heads-up they will have a candid conversation with your customer. With a call the person you know best there can try to cover you and pass the word to others in the office. If you cannot have that kind of relationship do not refer them...or their lines.

I think you got 86'ed by your customer. The board members are on the board because they have business experience and they know how to shop. A determined and savy customer can break people down and get their own way. Through the years I have seen so many of these groups. You never really know what their agenda is. They are perfectly willing to take advantage of everyone down the chain.

Also, congratulations on being a small shop and making a go of it. If you like doing the work, stay small, but realize the limitations (and advantages). If you are a businessman who wants to run people then go ahead and grow it.

One thing to consider as a small shop. When I was in the business and I did a particularly complicated system I would as a part of the contract give a system binder with isometric drawings, valve and component number tags referenced on the drawing, a system operation manual, wiring diagrams, and catalog sheets of all primary components. My contract said that I was not entitled to final payment until that manual was delivered. I would also keep copies at the shop and at home. Having the manual at home kept me from having to make a lot of service calls because I could get the owner to "try" a few things before going out. this manual is a tool that can give the owner the confidence to do business with the smaller contractor because they will then have a tool which if you are no longer around, they can still get service from another company. Happy Heating