Soldering ball valves

Ken_8

The name of the game is to have a fully soldered copper to socket (of the BV) joint.

To do this, the point of the flame should just barely reach the shoulder of the socket - while the flame is rotated 360° around the area that surrounds the socket and does not point nor directly heat up the hump of the body or unseeable deepest point of the socket.

Anyone who's ever soldered knows that "moment" when full melt penetration has been achieved.

The issue of the ball's position during this period should be full open. Here's the reasononing:

1) The most vulnerable component of the heating/soldering process is the nylon ring that forms the seal on the outermost lip of the ball valve body cavity. It is that lip that seals the chamber from water passing past the ball itself.

2) If the ball is full open, 100% of the nylon ring is in contact with the ball's OD. This acts as a heat sink and protects the nylon from being melted - or distorted!

3) Leaving the ball partly open exposes the nylon ring/seal to the air and surrounfding brass body temps - with less heat sink than any other position possible in that phase of the ball that is now inside the ball cavity. Therefore, part of the nylon ring is fully exposed without the ball's heat sink aid - while the part that IS in contact will be unevenly heated and induce warpage, distortion or a melting condition.

4) Leaving the ball fully closed allows the bore of the ball to trap air inside the valve body chamber and although the nylon seal is in full contact of the balls heat sink (protecting it in the process as before), it subjects the packing box and ball bore to 300°F+ air expansion dynamics - which likely exceed the WOG rating of at least 125# or perhaps 300# and will compromise the packing, the seal or if a drop or two of moisture is present, EXPLODE the valve body.

5) If another ball or positive shut off is downstream from the BV about to be soldered, the air pressure from the super heated air within the nearby tubing and migration of heat inside (if the BV is closed - and the one downstream is as well) might cause a joint fracture or "blowout" where the heated air pressure blows out the molten solder - before the plasma state is over.

6) And hey. Wipe the joint. We're pro's. Not slobs.

Whattaya think?


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joe_17

Soldering ball valves

What do you guys use to protect the internals of the ball valve when you solder them.Do you just wrap wet rag around valve.Thanks

ScottMP

just

the right size torch. I have never ( O.K. there was that one time ) over soldered a ball valve.

Scott

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Mike Kraft_2

Solder them

in the closed position and try to keep the flame directed towrds the fitting and not the teflon seats.


cheese

clammy

sweating ball valves

Hey mike your the only person i ,ve heard say to sweat your valves in the closed postion every body gives me a wierd look when i sweat them in the closed postion but that's the way your suppose to correct or at least that's what i was told years ago peace

Kal Row

i use a wet rag and have a spray bottle

handy to keep it wet,
cut yourself a few 1 inch strips of cotton towel, so that you can wrap the valve on the joint side without contacting the flame

I leave the valve almost fully open, so it doesn’t get stuck, and direct the heat away, and move the torch around the fitting in constant motion, which is always a good technique for nice joints – I have successfully silver brazed at 1700F using this technique


for zone valves only - i use the low temp 50/50 lead/antimony solder - ok for heating since you don’t drink it,
for sparco zone valves - the valve body comes out real easy - so i recommend talking it apart – ease of service and built in flow control are the best reasons to use the sparco’s – the reason not to, is price and availability – and before the Honeywell rep jumps down my throat – by “availability”, I mean actually sitting on the supply house shelve like the 8043’s are – not the “I can have it in a day or so” kind of
availability

the only meltdowns I have had soldering ball valves, were by being in a rush, and pushing a bad position, – if you cant do it proporly while installed, – do it in a sub assembly first

Mike Kraft_2

calmmy

many moons ago ball valves came with a slip of instructions in the valve.Thats just what the manufacturer recomended.Thats how I've been soldering ball valves for along time.I like Mr Scott had at least one melt down that I can remember.

cheese

hr

Half way open

And just enough heat to flow the solder. Really shouldn't need a wet rag.

Soldering with the valve completly closed will sometimes cause the pressure inside the ball to blow out the teflon seal. Definitely don't solder with water trapped in the ball,it can turn to steam if overheated, and pop the seal out also.

hot rod

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Patchogue Phil_23

I \"cheat\"...

...by using threaded ball valves. I sweat a male threaded connector on the piece of pipe I will need first. Then I twist on the ball valve. Some extra cost for the threaded connector and valve, but I haven't had to worry that I melted the internals.

Unknown

Don't sweat it Phil ( no pun )

We've been using sweat ball valves for years now , and like Scotty , I only remember one being heated so much it had a slight drip with the valve closed . We routinely hold the big sized Turbo tip on a valve with water in it for minutes at a time and no problems . And like Hot Rod said , sometimes when you sweat a ball valve in the closed position , it will build pressure internally . Like him , I sweat mine 1/2 open .

John Abbott

Many.....

thousands and no problems closed with the flame directed away from the body of the valve unless it would build pressure and then barely cracked.

John

hr

One problem with full open

is in a vertical application those that tend to "over solder" (adding too much solder to a loose joint) end up with a gob running down into, and maybe even through, the ball. When the valve is then turned... ouch.

I see that on fittings that are disassembled for scrap often times, a 4" long string of solder running down the vert.

Bottom line is the skill level of the torchbearer is the key to any sucessful solder joint. Practice is the only way to get there from here

Although I swear some of the cheap import valves have components with a melting point lower than solder! You'll see the stem packing sizzle as the torch approches the connection!

hot rod

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Ken_8

Full open problem?

Worse yet - if closed. The excess solder will "weld" the valve closed. Upon cooling of the air - the vacuum will draw in whatever plasma state solder left and suck it into the body cavbity - rendering the valve soldered closed - and useless.

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gerry gill

i'd have to side with the half open crowd,

cause its the only position that doesn;t trap air either in the ball or along side the ball...but i solder them in every position all the time with no trouble...'cept that every now and then time that we wont talk about.

rich pickering

half open. That way no water is trapped.When a little bit of water trapped behind the seal turns to steam and expands, it sounds like a shotgun.

KBP&H

the guy above me ( not quite)

rich is right, a closed ball valve will be good up to 300, or 600 psi in the ball, when the air or water heats up, the resulting pressure at the open end will sound like a shotgun, or a whistling jupiter----eeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

bob young

BALL VALVES

HAVE SOLDERED & BRAZED THEM EVERY WHICH WAY WITH NO PRE-CAUTION WHAT-SO-EVER SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND --ABOUT 30 YEARS . ABOUT A MILLION VALVES. PROBLEMS----ZERO FIRST TIME I EVER SAW THEM WAS WORKING ON SUBMARINE PIPING SYSTEMS IN THE MID SIXTIES

Jim Bennett

I personally have been sweating copper for 25 years and always do ball valves the same way as stop & waste's, open.

I always cool them off with a damp rag at completion and can't remember ever having one fail.

One thing I learned in the beginning was not to sweat copper trap adapters with the slip joint nut and washer in place. That makes a gooey mess! Only had to do that once.

You can always tell a plumber. But you can't tell em much. :-)

Mark Eatherton1

All good arguements, but...

What Clammy said. The instructions I've read said you should solder them with the valve in the fully closed position. Exactly oposite of the instructions I've read for soldering GATE valves...

Based on the responses here, its obvious that there is NO consensus on what position to solder them in. In my estimation, fully open or fully closed is better than partially opened because the seat is in full contact with the face of the ball.

In an effort to hold down on the budget at school, it is quite common to recycle ball valves whenever possible. I always warn the students to unsolder the valve with the valves in the closed position, and to allow them to fully cool after unsoldering to avoid them going off like a shot gun.

Knock on wood, no ones ever been seriously injured in my classes, but there have been a few close calls due to people opening ball valves before they've fully cooled.

I guess it's "to each his own". I do agree with the instructions to direct the flame AWAY from the bottom of the solder cup tho...

ME

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kevin_5

It happened to me.

I've never destroyed a valve, but I did blow the seal out of a wet (used) one. I had a lot of heat on it due to moisture in the pipe we were working on.The guy I was doing the job for didn't want ot spring for a new one. He took it apart and got the teflon seat back in and it worked just fine.
I was thanking God I still had two eyes in my head. Safety glasses are great...(though shamefully I didn't have them on that day) and they don't even make you look like Alfred E. Neuman (the geek of MAD magazine fame) anymore. Kevin

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Weezbo

)

i am the only one who said this so...I always open and close and open the valves first:):)) with water in them closed is my decieded way to solder them:) on the work bench open ... i like to cool them down with a light spray and clean them there and then with a damp/ dry rag. i like clean and shiney:)

Steve Miller

Ball valves

I've been soldering ball valves since 1977 and always soldered with 'em open, unless I have 'em shut with water on the already soldered side. The only time I have a problem was with a Hammond and a Nibco valve and I melted the teflon seal. The best valve in my opinion are the Red/White valves, full port with the red handles.

Steve M

Steve Miller

Ball valves

I've been soldering ball valves since 1977 and always soldered with 'em open, unless I have 'em shut with water on the already soldered side. The only time I have a problem was with a Hammond and a Nibco valve and I melted the teflon seal. The best valve in my opinion are the Red/White valves, full port with the red handles.

Steve M