so what else fails in Munchkins?

Troy_3

We've installed every size that munchkin makes. Our first installs go back three seasons. Most also heat domestic hot water, so they run year round. We've heated laundromats,car wash snowmelts, office buildings large homes, even a 7 story apartment bldg. with 6-m199s. Or experience has been- a few of the early air pressure switches were touchy and wouldn't always pull in and required an adjustment. Pressure switch is no longer used. The EBM blowers on the 199s had a bad batch and we had to replace a few. Over 3 years and 150 boilers we haven't purchased any parts so you figure out where the propaganda is coming from. Every part that we have put on has been in warrentee. I haven't seen these cheaply made parts. EBM supplies most boiler manufacturers to my understanding.

R. Kalia

what else fails in Munchkins?

Is the blower fan a problem for 80M only, as the title of the long-running recent topic indicates, or does it apply to the 140M and 199M as well?

What other parts are found to fail in the Munchkin? What components are cheaply built and/or overly complicated and so prone to failure?

Mi39ke_2

My Take

Obviously, if you sell a lot of a product, the manufacturer does have a reason to take care of you in a friendlier and more professional manner. This is simple human sales agenda. Heck, they even buy you lunch and if you go to Europe and are of the average joe mentality...well, let's not mention what that will get you! [chuckle]

We (as a company, and myself personally) were critical of the build and performance of the early Munchkins. Even so, my brother installed one in his home. We also installed one in a client's home (he was an experimental dude, he knew the risks).

When the blower died and the heat exchanger fouled on the combustion side, we had very little support (read: concern from the Rep). Still don't have any. Even when a gasket or something (I'm not the service tech) that was letting gas into the home went bye-bye, the response was less than spectacular.

Bottom line: If you buy them for your customers, buy a lot of them and always promote them, as you will get better service and response. If you can't buy a lot, settle for crowing about their value, so they will remember you at the factory if you have a problem. If you are a consumer and buying online: Hire a pro to install it, then buy a third party insurance policy to back it. Then buy a maintenance agreement from your installer that covers all the points in the manufacturers warranty.

This is America, we have the freedom to test things on our clients. It can be good, it can be bad...it depends on the integrity of the testing house (manufacturer). Just my opinion, of course.

Best regards,

Michael Ward

chris h

reliability

My supplier had specified a Munchkin 199 for a domestic water system in a very busy restaurant. After following the thread on blower failure and asking for the HTP folks to convince me their product was top shelf, I've decided to jump ship. i never really heard a strong defense of the boiler or product service. I am aware of the truism that "everything mechanical WILL fail", but I get nervous thinking about putting all my eggs in the Munchkin basket after reading the 'blower failure" thread. I'll wait a few years until HTP gets its act together.
chris h in boulder

S Ebels

Other problems

I have had trouble with condensate leakage due to improper fittings and the condensate trap plugging up. On one recently, (second winter of service, installed for 16 months) the condensate backed up into the combustion chamber to a level that saturated the refractory and "dissolved" it. [I find it unusual that the unit would operate in this condition] Dissolved is not the right term, the refractory likely soaked up some condensate during an off cycle and then fragmented when it became heated during the next firing as the water in it flashed to steam. Not under warranty but I covered it myself.

We now remove the factory drain tube on every Munchie and install one that we have "field engineered" in such a way as to make it much easier to clean and inspect. Basically we make the trap external to the boiler instead of tucked underneath the HX which makes it a real bear to get at. Contrary to advice I received from the factory, the sludge/crap/debris that builds up in every trap on all condensing equipment cannot be blown out using the inducer nor will sucking it out with a shop vac remove all of it.

I have had problems getting parts but in tracking down where the hold up was, I found that it was the distributor once and the rep/jobber twice. Munchkin, in particular Chuck Shaw, has always had answers for my questions. Chuck will do whatever he has been given the latitude to do in order to solve a problem.

IMPORTANT>>>>>>>> Other than that I have had NO problems.

ScottMP

Lets be total objective here

I have seven of Munchkins installed. Does that make me a large installer ?

I have recieved excellent responce from HTP.

I have had problems with ONE unit. On that unit two of the problems where mine and the other was a blower problem and pressure switch that was covered by HTP. My installer errors where handled with HTP's help.

I believe it is a credit to HTP that they have responded so well. Now, I live in the same state and its easy for them to respond to me. They are a growing company that is producing a product that has Taken Off in the market. They are working to keep up with demand in product and tech help.

They are also listening to these post and not giving any "salesman pitch" about it not being their problem. They listen and they change. Is it perfect, No. Remember they are also trying to competitive in the market place.

Its a new product that is evolving and changes are being made All the time. Should they have let the product sit for years while testing was done ? Dos'nt some track record have to come from the field ?

With Thousands of these units out in the field if these problems where Wide spread I belive they would be out of the market place. I don't think thats going to happen.

These units are installed and running with out a hitch with customers who are saving fuel in comfortable homes.

My Two Cents

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jackchips_2

More like

two bits, Scott. Well said.

Ted_5

Heat - X leak

A contractor told me that a 3 month old Munchkin sprung a leek. He said it was on a cold Friday night just as he was getting ready to go out of town!
I had another contractor tell me he put one in his own house first before trying it on a job. After a few month, when he got one day he saw flames shooting out of the exaust, and when he went to shut it off he said it was hopping around! He had to replace the gas valve.
I had another contractor tell me he also put one in his own house. The blower failed, the gas valve failed, and also the co detector went off because a gasget was bad.
I have not used one myself.

Ted

Mark Hunt

Ted


What company do you work for?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Matt Undy

I like how you can actually add it to your cart on some of the sites i've found them for sale on. I don't think you shoudl restirct the sale of items to homeowners that know enough to do their research on the codes and installation methods and materials and have some engineering experience to do the job themselves but selling boilers like they were a print cartridge and a bag of zip ties is a bit much. Now if i cna only find somone who has such a philosophy and some consumer size cans of freon 22 and won't ask questions about an epa license.... What is involved in geting a license? Is it just a paper test? Is it expensive? Why do i seem to keep taking these threads completley off topic?

Matt

Dave Yates (PAH)

nothing like second hand info

The only failure we've seen, was the disintegration of a blower draft inducer wheel on a 199. Our supplier removed a blower assembly from another in-stock unit to get us back in business - on a Sunday night no less. On one other unit, we had two factory leaks (one at the trap and another at a fitting that was only hand tight). Both were easily corrected.

Did we experience other problems? You betcha, but I'm embarrased to say we created every one of them by venturing outside of the factory diagrams for venting and/or piping. Once we corrected our experimental excursions, we experienced no further problems. Have we found a way to pipe things the way we'd like that differ from the factory drawings? Yes(G). Might as well be a "wet paint" sign hanging on those drawings!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kevin_16

Which one is the best

I just don't know first when I used the weil-mcclain ULTRa I had problems with the gas valves, then a salesmen sugested I use a Munchkin and I had problems with the blower and pressure switch. I understand that problems are going to occur and that no one product is perfect. However now I am being told about buderus and viessmann. One salesmen tried to sell me a tankless boiler/water heater. I would just like to know which of these boilers is the most reliable for my customers????
Munchkin Weil-Mcclain Buderus Viessman
Just thought I would ask!
Thanks Kevin

Mike Kraft_2

I feel your pain Kevin.

Thats key isn't it.Reliability.Fixing a new appliance due to our own problems is bad enough.But having faith in the appliance you pick is so important.Guess thats why I sit and watch.It's not a perfect world.With that understood we do get occasional disruptions with all the stuff we install.

I see that the track records are speaking outloud.Perhaps the Vitodens is a very high priced appliance.Watching the threads come and go with condensing boilers and water heaters the Vitodens as of my memory,had but one installer with an issue.I cannot remember specificlly but one is it.The numbers of Munchkin installs greatly out number the Vitodens.At least here at the Wall.The installers of the Munchkin also include installing some that were out of the manufacturers guidlines.Some failures were a result of this.

The Buderus condenser is going through it's course of approvals for US distribution.I have been leary of using a aluminum HX.Thats my concern with the Buderus wall hung condenser.I do not know much about WM's/Ultra.I know the WM installers are tickled that they stepped up to the plate.I was once a WM user but thats another story;).When my time comes to sell a condenser I am leaning to Viessman.It just seems to me that the European product is tested,tested,tested and then punished before it makes it across the pond.The MZ is a condenser that has been here for quite sometime.As of yet it does not offer a modulating burner.I'm sure that is in the works.But it seems to have a very excellent repore with all that have installed it.Bottom line is whatever we choose as a heating plant we have to fix it if it's broken.Our decision!

cheese

Wayco Wayne_2

Just had

a blower go on a 2 month old T80 Munchkin. I got great service. It went bad on a Sunday, I called it in on Monday. Had a new one on my hand on Tuesday, next day air payed for thank you. It's hard to sell top of the line to everyone. The Munchkin is an affordable condensing boiler and fills the gap between upper class economic range and middle class realities. The Viesman condensing costs twice as much as the Munchkin. That puts it out of reach for a lot of my customers. I have had a few problems but have always had good service. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mike Kraft_2

I guess the way I look at it...................

Who pays for the time Wayne?You have two trips at least to the job.Phone conversation,a system thats down for the better part of 24 hours and your gonna be out$$$.An occasional problem for me is excpected with a system.To many repeat offenses for me to chaulk it up to affordable condensing.So far these systems are short term installs!What happens when the warranty is up?I'm not trying to be a smart ****........just smart:)

cheese

S Ebels

Question for all HO's reading this

If you install your own equipment, say what, maybe once or twice in 20 years, How do you know if you have a problem with it?

I'm not asking this in a disparaging or condescending way at all. I know from experience when something looks right, sounds right, acts right, tests right. I know from my testing equipment and training when everything is as it should be. I am curious as to how one would determine the soundness of a system with out the benefit of the things I mentioned, namely experience, training and tools.

Ted_5

I work for myself

S.S. Plumbing and Contracting LLC. I have been on my own since 96. Before that I worked for a large Heating & Plumbing shop, we did alot of commercial hydronic heat. I wanted to do more radiant, so I went out on my own. The last three years I have been using Viessmann boilers only!
The last two years I also do some consulting work for a rep firm called Saufferer & Assc. They needed help in this state with the products they had and they were the products I had been using, so it was an easy fit. It also helped that I am a certified UA instructor and had been teaching a Radiant basics and Advanced coures to the locals across the state. I'm also qualified to teach at the state Tech Schools.
This year looks like I will be doing more of the rep work then the plumbing & heating. I hope this helps!

Ted

Kevin_16

Speaking of affordablitiy

Speaking affordability now we are on a totaly diferent subject. A rep had told me that I can use his tankless heater that gave me 140,000Btu/H and my contractor cost would be around 500-600 dollar. I have been exstremly leary of using a tankless heater though it get good reviews and they are 85% effiecent (NOT AFUE). Well I wonder if anybody here has tried one of these tankless heater in a small radiant job??????
thanks kevin

Mark Eatherton1

Ted....

I find your stories JUST a little hard to believe...

Flames shooting from a PVC vent??? And his house didn't burn to the ground? AMAZING!!!

A boiler "hopping around"?? What, the installing contractor used rubber hoses to make the connections to the boiler so it had room to roam?

Come on now Ted, we all know you sleep with a Viessmann, but do you continually have to come up with these far fetched stories about the major competing boiler? I've never said anything negative about the german boiler with the SS in its name and any potential connections to the Nazi germany....Rumours suck. Heresay is rumour at its best.

I've had problems with Viessmann's too. In fact I've had problems with EVERY brand of boiler I've ever worked on or installed, but I don't come running to the Wall trying to make one brand look better than the other.

Please use some restraint in your posts about the competition.

And what you do in your own back yard is your own business, but don't drag the competition through the mud to make your boiler look better. Viessmann is NOT perfect.

My $0.02 worth.

ME


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_5

So, are calling me a liar !

This may be second hand news, but not hearsay. The contractor was talking to me directly. They all said the problems were coverd under warrenty and the factory took care of it fast. If it were an installation problem would the factory still cover it? No where in any of my posts have I called the Munchkin junk! In fact in one post I said if I had to pick between a NTI and Munchkin, I would choose Munchkin.
You are right, every boiler has some problems. I have had a few with the Vitodens. One was a bad motherboard, another was a pump, and in my own, there was a bad capacitor on the VR-20 board.
I could have used the Munchkin when they first hit the market, but having to deal with some of those Voyageur water heaters I took a wait and see attitude. Then when I sat through a Munchkin training class and some red flags went up when the rep said, our heat - X is just like Viessmanns, AFUE is test 180F out and 160F in and we are 92%
and we also condense in those conditions? I though, well I better see what Viessmann has to offer if this company wants to be like them. Thats when I found out that the only advantage Munchkin had over the Vitodens was the price! If both were equal and the price was that far apart then that would be a selling point, but for me price is the last thing I look at! I have lost alot of bids to them. If everyone was jumping off a cliff would you jump!
All of this aside, I can see your point, next time I will keep my secound hand information to my self.

Ted

jackchips_2

I didn't

read that, Ted.

Did any of your friends ever tell you anything good about other boilers?

Mark Eatherton

No...

I didn't call you a liar. I'm not one to mince words. I call an Ace an Ace and a Spade a Spade.

Thank you for the clarification and thanks for avoiding inuendos in the future.

That's all I can ask for.

ME

Mark Hunt

Is this you?


Ted Schmelling?

http://www.phcmc.com/saufferer_asso.htm

You're a Viessmann rep right?



Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_5

Yes, I guess you could say that

Ted

Mark Hunt

Geeze Ted


Why the deception?

I met the folks from Viessmann and they would NEVER condone what you have been doing.

There was a rep from Monitor here a while back that did something similar, but he never hid his identity.

I also looked up S.S Plumbing and Contracting. The yellow page ad only mentions drain cleaning, the company does not come up under HVAC. ????????

Full disclosure Ted. I knew you had to be more than just a heating contractor.

The jig is up.

Please be sure to post your true identity from now on when you opine. It will give you much more credibility.



Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

Nice Detective Work, Mark!

No wonder that Viessmann can do no wrong in Ted's eyes, he represents them. Fascinating... and here I was wondering why he kept extolling the virtues of all things Viessmann considering that all appliances do fail occasionally.

This is a good lesson... Just because someone walks and talks like a contractor does not mean that they're not repping for a specific company. It is my understanding that the music industry hires interns for the same reason, i.e. polluting the various internet chat rooms and whatnot with veiled ads for specific artists. This is not to say that this was the intent of Viessmann or Ted, he may simply have been over-enthusiastic.

I hope Ted doesn't try to deceive us any further. However, I feel he owes the board an apology considering how he was using it to promote the brand he represents without full disclosure.

Constantin

Look at it from another perspective

Consider that problems usually creep up on HO's. The change is so gradual, they hardly notice.

For example, the former owners of our house had 1/2 of all joists in the formal parlor pop out of the main beam. The floor dropped 3 inches and the only reason that the grand piano and the 6' bookshelves did not end up in the basement was that one joist landed on a pier. One 2x8 joist was holding up much of the floor! Have you checked the location of your floor joists lately?

Similarly, what goes on within the confines of most appliances is a complete mystery. That box makes heat, that box makes hot water, etc. The only thing that most HO's might adjust in the basement, from time to time, are the circuit breakers and/or the water heater temperature.

As how to fix the problem of unawareness, I think the answer is intelligent appliances. Something like the Check Engine Light in your vehicle that tells the HO, "Hey, I HAVE A PROBLEM!". Perhaps something that can be wired directly into the central alarm so that the heating company can be called before the frost alarm goes off. To do so would be trivial, it is but a micro-amp relay that gets triggered by the CPU when a serious problem is detected.

Supply House Rick

Roto-Rooter Ted

And away goes trouble down the drain...

We need a a Jet-Truck Operator? You interested?
Must have high rubber boots.(very high)

jim_51

TED

As a home owner who had a viessman installed last year I believe some of you are out of line bashing Ted. It was this very site that encouraged me last year to contact Ted and advised me that he was a rep.. There was no local dealer in my area. When I contacted Ted he was actually at a training session with a new dealer in my area. I worked with Ted and the dealer. They were very open and honest. Especially pointing out the pros and cons of the Viessman and other manufactures. Ted never bashed any other products. In fact he talked me out of going with a more expensive Viessman unit because it was over kill and not the proper application. Again I don't think that Ted was trying to fool anyone. I think some of you are reading much more into this.

Constantin

Allow me to disagree

The issues are:

• Ted participated in several threads regarding the HTP Munchkin, a competitor to the products he represents. Worse, his posts mainly consisted of "have you tried Viessmann?" lines instead of addressing the technical issue the thread was concentrating on.
• He extolled the virtues of Viessmann without stating in his posts that he is a Viessmann Representative. Note how employees of HTP like Chuck Shaw always disclose their affiliations.
• As I suggested above, he may simply have been over-enthusiastic in his praise in all things Viessmann. And, I like what you have to say about him, bringing me closer to believing that his omission was an accident rather than deliberate.
• However, he has to be upfront in every post about his affiliations. This is not a forum where everyone knows everyone. His affiliation is important to know since it could color his judgement (and no, I'm not implying it does). By default, we assume that folks here are either contractors or homeowners. "Others" should identify themselves as such or risk being discredited.

Ted_5

I never listed in the yellow pages.

What book did you look in? Word of mouth is the the best form of advertising. No, I do not clean drains.
Who do you work for? Have you ever looked at a Viessmann?

Ted

Mark Hunt

See that \"Find a contractor\" listing Ted?

Have I ever seen a Viessmann?

Why yes I have.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_5

Thanks Jim

I am glad to hear from you! Troy was the contractor I sent your way, what did he have to say about Viessmann quality over the boiler he had been using and wich boiler was that!
Did you have any problems with your Viessmann this cold winter? Thanks again Jim.

Ted

Murph'_5

haye .....

Good thing youse got that copper in before the increase!!




Murph'

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_5

Do you know what they say

about assume. If you assume it just makes an
****-[out of]-u-[and]-me. Mark was the first to ask the question. Who are you? Have you ever looked at Viessmann?
Have you ever installed any boilers? What is your reason to be on the wall?

Ted

Ted_5

Nice work Mark

How big was the house. When do you hook the boiler up?
Did you look me up in the RPA book. I have been a member since 98. Here is my first Viessmann install before I was hired as a rep.

Ted

Mark Hunt

Thanks Ted


Nice looking install there.


The Vitodens is up and running, I just haven't had a chance to take any completed pics yet.

I will post them soon.

That house is 7000 sqft.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

Never mind Ted

I guess you see nothing wrong with your "have you tried Viessmann?" ejaculations in a thread that is critical of HTP, a direct competitor? Wow, and there I thought it was an accident. Benefit of the doubt and all that. BTW, did you ever see the folks from Burnham, Slant-Fin, NTI, etc. ever do something similar? Wonder why?

As to assumptions, boy that is an old one. Straight from the sixties, if not older. Why don't we start speculating about specs in each others eyes while we're at it (hint, that's an even older one).

But seriously, as best as I can tell, this forum is meant for the open exchange of ideas, answering questions, etc. - not covert marketing purposes. As far as I'm concerned, your posts extolling the virtues of St. Viessmann without identifying yourself as a Viessmann evangelist are clearly over the line.

Thus, I and others would appreciate that you disclose your commercial PR/whatever affiliation to Viessmann in every post. It's a matter of principle, good manners, and ethical to boot. If the newspapers can do it in their reporting of events, so can you, particularly if you start using the Wall as a means to cheerlead the brand you represent professionally.

leo g_13

hey mark

you should seriously start a new thread on how you size your pictures for posting. i love the way that they download so fast!

leo g

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ScottMP

So Ted

Just so you know, these two are not the only ones reading this post, nor are they the only two who are putoff by your hidden agenda tactics.

If you stick around you will find that this site is populated by members of the trade who are full of integrity.

You've slipped on your first try. Stand up and try agian and maybe we'll all learn together.

And yes Ted, I have installed Viessamnn also and I cam assure you this is NOT how they want thier product represeted.

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DanHolohan

Yes.