Wet Returns

Jay_10

I have an old one-pipe steam boiler that appears to be on its last legs and needs to be replaced. The boiler is in a finished basement and so none of the boiler piping is exposed. We bought the house last year and have no idea whether the wet returns are clogged or not or when if ever they were flushed or cleaned--the house is about 80 years old although the basement zone was finished more recently. We are interviewing contractors to get it replaced and have gotten different estimates and proposals on what to do about the wet returns.

Some contractors say they will only guarantee that the boiler works and can make no assurances about anything else structurally in the house including the wet returns. They propose to do nothing about the wet returns and say we should only do something about it if and when the boiler stops working and at that point then bash in the walls and replace the piping.

Other contractors proposed to flush out the entire system and thereby flush sediement from the wet returns.

Finally others suggest the only way to approach this is to open the basement walls and replace the wet return piping. This makes it difficult to give an estimate since the piping is not exposed and would require some digging to find out where the wet returns are and to replace them.

I would appreciate some views on these approaches and what steam contractors on the wall typically do in this situation. I have heard that the second alternative of flushing out the system (a) doesn't really flush the wet returns and (b) can be damaging to the steam system. I appreciate your views. Thanks.

Jay

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Tou don't need

to find the old return in order to replace it; it can take a new path back to the boiler.

If nobody will guarantee their work unless the return is replaced, have it replaced. If it's 80 years old, it needs replacing.

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Jay_10

Not sure if returns are old or new

We only bought the house last year with the finished basement and so we don't know if the wet returns are the original 80 year old ones or more recently replaced. When the boiler is on, the steam system appears to be working and heats all the radiators without water hammer or short cycling or other problems I understand sometimes go wrong with steam heat (there appears to be some tapping noises when the heat first comes on but we can live with that). It appears that the existing problems are with the boiler itself--large gouts of flame when it turns itself on--someties so violent that it blows out the pilot light--which seem dangerous to us and why we want to replace the boiler. We also have high energy bills but it is an old house with only blown roof insulation but we are hoping a new boiler will be nmore efficient--the existing one is probably about 20 years old.

As the steam system generally appears to work, most of the contractors I've talked to recommend "if it ain't broke (meaning the piping), don't fix it." I think they would be willing to guarantee their work as it applies to the operation of the boiler and boiler installation, but they would like to disclaim responsibility for house structural problems such as clogged piping or leaks if they develop. Is this a sensible approach or only delaying the inevitable? Is there a view on the efficacies or dangers to flushing out the piping the middle-ground that some contractors are suggesting? Thanks in advance.

Dale

How does it work?

If the boiler runs for a few hours and doesn't go off on low water cut off the condensate is getting back by the old wet returns so that's good. See if any posts the link to the posts a few years ago on how messy and stinky flushing the wet returns can be. I would flush or replace them but ask the contractor how he plans to deal with the mess, a dedicated wet vac and lots of visqueen will be needed.

Mad Dog

Absolutely!!! you should bash the nice new walls and replace

the returns! However, most people - especially the wives- will cringe. When we replace a steamer, we suggest return cleaning and possible replacement. We make sure that the folks understand that it is a seperate job, and that we are not responsible for them in any way - UNLESS we can change them. Look, don't get crazy about it. Have the guy who does it add a backup low water cutoff (I like the MM #67) and make sure you maintain the boiler. When the boiler is replaced, the returns can be flushed then. We always install a nice flushing station at the end of the return. See Dan's book GOT STEAM HEAT for a picture....that's one of ours. The installing contractor should not be held liable for the condition of the returns BUT he should not be afraid to get down to business either. Have him put it in writing and sign off, so he doesn't feel he's gonna get stuck eating it. You see, most contractors won't even address the issue, and when the returns leak a month later, they ain't comin back. You might get lucky: I'd say that only 15-20% of replacement boilers that we do, need return replacementThe real steam contractor will emerge! Good Luck Mad Dog

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J.C.A._3

20 years isn't that long...(small giggle inserted here)

Maybe you can track down the installer of the last boiler and see if they can tell you if the returns were replaced at the time. Another chance is that you can find the old owner and ask him if the piping was replaced during the tranformation to a "finished space" . Best of luck. This sounds like a shot in the dark situation to me, unless you can find the previous contractors and assertain the real story.
I,(if it were my home) would really like to know the age of the returns, especially if they are below the floor.

My next question would be...Does the system require filling ,or , do you hear the auto-fill go on at regular intervals? Kind of a lousy time of the year to put a "counting" type feed valve in, but it would give you a clue if the unit is also used for making hot water.
Like I said earlier, best of luck. This sounds like a tough one to figure. Chris

Jay_10

Wet returns

Thanks for all the advice. I will try to find out more about the wet returns from when the basement was finished but that is likely to be a dead end as I bought the house from an Australian family that has moved back to Australia and the basement was likely to have been finished before their ownership in any case as they had the house only for 5 years and said they did not house imporvements during this time.

I sense replacement of the wet returns at this time is likely to be unpopular with the family as we have an infirm newborn in the house and so my wife is not going to like a lot of construction going on or large expenditure for this installation. I think my realistic options are likely to be (1) do nothing or (2) flush out the system.

I think most of the condensate is getting back to the boiler--the automatic water feeder is in the basement and is loud in operation and when the boiler is on, I do not hear it going off every few hours.

The contractors advocating replacement or do nothing seem to believe that flushing does not remove significant sediment and one warned is likely to cause new leaks in the piping that weren't there before. Any views on this? Is he right--could there be leaks all over our house from this?

The contractor that proposed flushing I understand intends to turn up the pressure and catch the condensate and sediment when it comes out the other end perhaps through some valve that he will install as part of the new boiler installation. (I did ask for both a primary and secondary low water cut-off as suggested by Dan's book--perhaps that is where they plan to vent the condensate.) No chemicals or other procedures. Is this the right way to do this? Any other recommended approach? Are there specific questions I should be asking here? Questions on clean-up?

Thanks agan for any advice.