steamer indirect

kevin coppinger_4

I just today installed a Super stor ultra 45 off a steam boiler using the condensate to heat it.(a first for me) I followed the piping diagrams here, used a reverse acting aquastat,a bronze 007, bypass,themometer, etc.

I then proceed to fire up the boiler and all is well until I notice the boiler pressure going up and the boiler water temp. not going up as high/fast as I thought it would....after 10 min. the water temp. is at 140 and I am getting steam starting to move out to the radiators...(the whole reason to add the reverse aqua. was to stop the system from steaming...)I tried to adjust the pressuretrol but no matter what the boiler did not cut out and the boiler pressure went to 5psi. after I adjusted the reverse aqua. to cut out at 170... ideal but it did shut the burner off. after 20 the water heater was satisfied and it did shut the whole system off.

How can a boiler produce condensate at the bottom at 165F and steam at the top? I thought that steam was actually produced at the bottom of the boiler? If needed I can get pictures....any clues here...the customer got my name from this site....kpc

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Unknown

Kevin

Not quite sure how you are piping this indirect loop but here is a diagram for an indirect to one of our steamers. This is for one of our V7 boilers utilizing a tapped cover plate....the V8 has dedicated tappings for the supply and high limit. You need to supply the indirect from a high tapping with the aquastat (break on temperature rise) mounted in the same location. The return needs to go back into the boiler low on the oppposite corner of the boiler. This way you will circulate through the whole boiler and not just through the bottom nipple ports. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Dave Stroman

Kevin,

The aquastat must be as close the the top of the water line as possible. I have even had it slightly above the water line and it still works.

You must make sure that you do not simply pump the water in one side and out the other. It will not pick up enough Btus. You must somehow stir up the water as it passes through. Did not Dan mention this in his directions? There are a few ways to do this. One way is to solder on a elbow onto a piece of copper tubing and insert it into the bottom of the boiler so as the pump pushes the water into the tubing, it will shoot it up between one of the sections of the boiler. Another way I have done it is to take a piece of copper, usually 1/2", solder on a cap, drill about 4 or 5 holes in the top of the pipe, 1/4" is good, and slide it about 18" into the bottom of the boiler.

Bush the tap in the boiler down to 3/4", put in a 3/4" male adaptor with a 3/4 x 1/2 fitting reducer. File the stop out of the reducer. This will let you slide the copper tubing through it to the depth you want. I hope I am discribing this well enough for you to get the idea. I can draw it if you need to.

I have used this several times and it works great. By using a heat exchanger that is below the water line, you may find that you will not have to use the bypass at all. If you do not use a heat exchanger, a bypass is a must because you will usually be pumping up above the water line. I use 006 pumps but a 007 will work too.

Hope this helps.

Dave in Denver

Christian Egli

Ideas only

My first thought was that water turns into steam (vapor) at all temperatures, even snow does. That's why a plate of water will dry up at room temperature even though you don't heat it to boiling point. This ability is measured as vapor pressure.

That said it is very strange that your boiler can develop 5 PSI at 165 F. So I am thinking that for whatever reason your boiler keeps your water stratified in layers, cold at the bottom and boiling on top.

Is it maybe that your boiler has a large water volume and is also under-fired, that could explain a lack of mixing. Maybe the lower portion of the boiler is covered with soot and prevents a good heat transfer in that area.

But still, you develop 5PSI. Are your controls and temperature gauges working correctly and are they placed in good location with regards to your new piping.

Do you have a circulator on the tank or do you flow the condensate once through the tank before returning it to the boiler.

A solution: add a temperature control to the boiler so that when you don't want steam you'll stop heating the water at whatever temperature you want but not boiling point.

I hope this is helpful

Dave Stroman

The only way I have ever done heating this way is with both the supply and the return piped into the bottom of the boiler. If you draw the water off the top on the boiler you will have trouble when the boiler is making steam for the rest of the house. The pump will not pump steam. You may also find that a strainer will get clogged. That is the reason you should use a pump with a large impeller, you will not need a strainer. Dan says to use a 3 piece pump but I have made this work with Taco.

Dave in Denver

Unknown

Kevin

You mentioned a reverse acting aquastat - does it make or break on the temperature rise ? When we install an indirect or a zone of heat on a steam boiler , we use a Taco single zone relay . The T T of the relay controls the circ for the indirect , and the separate dry contacts of the relay get connected to the T T of the burner circuit , with a boiler aquastat wired in series with it - to stop the boiler from steaming if the indirect calls for heat ( a single aquastat that breaks on temp rise ) . The placement of the boiler aquastat is critical to shutting the boiler down before it steams .

Any pics of the install , or maybe a diagram of the piping arrangement and where the supply and return of the indirect are piped into the boiler ?

kevin coppinger_4

thanks all...

this is a Peerless 61 series boiler 4 section...not a whole lot of tappings...not a lot of choices...I have the suppl coming out one side and going through the coil and returning through the boiler drain side...I suppose i could change some of the piping but it still does not explain the pressure situation...would the throttling the inlet/outlet help the flow rate? kpc

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kevin coppinger_4

I will get some pics.....

they will be better at explaining....leave the door open Fred....I am sure my customer is reading w/ interest....kpc

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Unknown

Unknown

The 61 series

I think I have a pic of a 61 with a zone of heat on the bottom - I'll see if I can find it . If I remember right , we used that coil tapping also , for the return . I forgot where we put the aquastat , but like you said , they don't give you many options with the 61 . Good luck Dave .

Unknown

Going to have to disagree

with you on this one Dave. As long as the high tapping is safely below the normal water line, you will not be pumping steam. Supplying and returning to and from the bottom of the boiler will circulate only the cooler water from the bottom of the boiler and your high limit being mounted high will shut down prematurely or possibly make steam. Burnham provides tappings on its steam boilers (Gas and Oil) for this purpose. The locations of these tappings are for optimum performance. Can't neccessarily speak for the other brands though as they may not provide them. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Dave Stroman

This high tapping are where I would put the aquastat. When the tank calls for heat the boiler will run up to 180 and stop. It seems to me that if the boiler where up to full steam pressure and you pumped the water out of the top of the boiler, up to some baseboard on the 2nd floor, you would be having some problems. But I guess the bypass would keep the water from flashing to steam.
I have piped them just like Dan has drawn, both at the bottom of the boiler.

Dave in Denver

Phil_6

Sometimes..

..I need to also install a strap on aquastat on one of the risers to the header to turn off the burner if the steam starts creeping up when the HW zone is running.Works for me.

Phil

kevin coppinger_4

here they are....

I see that the return might not be the best way to go ... maybe I should cut out one side instead of the 2 sides...

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kevin coppinger_4

here they are....

I see that the return might not be the best way to go ... maybe I should cut out one side instead of the 2 sides...

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Unknown

Ahh , there they are

It looks like the aquastat is sensing lower temp water when the boiler is at a much higher temp . The way you have it piped now , you're just circulating the water right through the boiler , not picking up much heat , and the aquastat will run and run the boiler looking to satisfy . 2 things to try - pipe the return of the indirect higher in the boiler . Is there a 3/4 tapping in the boiler coil plate where the boiler gauge is ? Another option if you didn't use both 2 inch tappings on top is get a 2 by 3/4 double tap bushing and drop a pipe down into the boiler a little lower than the water line .

And also , like Phil said , try to get that aquastat on the boiler itself . I think strapping it onto the header as close to the boiler is your best option now . Good luck Kevin .

Dave Tourigny

we pipe ours

with the pump mounted at the bottom of the boiler, pumping away, and return just below the water line. This circulates the cooler water first and draws the hot water down. I let the burner run to maintain 180 at the provided aquastat tapping. This setup will not allow steaming.

In a couple of cases where the boiler did not have a tapping near the water line we have made a dip tube and piped into an available upper tapping.

This arrangement works equally well when adding a zone of baseboard. If you keep the loop closed within the boiler water line you can dependably circulate to the floor above. Be sure to pump away from the bottom to avoid flashing in the supply and poor pump performance. Incidently, if you do run heat above you will need a flowcheck.

Dave T

Unknown

As Ron Stated

You are basically just flowing directly through the return nipple port and not picking up any heat from the boiler. It also appears that you are also pulling water through the return connection if I am seeing this correctly. I sort of marked up your photo a little to try and understand the direction of your flow. Correct me if I am wrong. You need to try and circulate most of the boiler water volume to make this work correctly. Hope this helps.

Glenn

kevin coppinger_4

the problem is...

there are not many tappings...the 61 series gas doesn't give you much...unlike an oil fired boiler.Thanks Ron... kpc

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kevin coppinger_4

Glenn...

I watched this happening as I was taking pictures ,you are probably right. kpc

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Unknown

I hooked in a zone

just like Kevin did in the same boiler , and ran into the same headache . I also thought that since the boiler drain is in another section of the boiler , I could run the supply to the baseboard zone out of the return tapping on the other side . The zone did not work unless the boiler was steaming up . I put the return of the zone into the 3/4 tapping in the coil hole and moved the gauge to the pigtail in the 67 . For the life of me , I can't remember where we installed the boiler aquastat - the Peerless gas steamer is extremely lacking in appropriate tappings .

Unknown

Their literature

shows a 3/4" secondary Probe LWCO tapping on the right side labeled tapping "O". Do you have this tapping and is it being used? It appears to always remain below the desired water level. Take a look at that and see if that will work. You will need to either split or valve off that split return though, otherwise you will still short cycle through the right section. An even better idea would be to call Peerless about this. Hope this helps.

Glenn