Frank Lloyd Wright house

Ed Manley

I have a customer with a Frank Lloyd Wright house with old steel radiant in a concrete floor mostly slab on grade. The ceiling hieght is 81", there is no chase above or below to run any other type heat. They don't want radiant in the walls or to go through chopping up the slab. One option is 1/2" foam, 1-1/2" gypcrete and tile giving a 2-1/2" loss of head room. I was thinking 1/2" quiktrac, 1/2" cement board and tile, giving a loss of 1-1/2" which is preferable considering the low ceiling. Any ideas on how much heat will travel to the old slab and if glueing the quiktrac panels down would work or would they have to be shot into the slab? Manleyplumbing

Mike T., Swampeast MO

If the quicktrak itself is ½" thick, then the tube (I presume ½") is going to be sitting on top of the existing slab. I think you'd need to consider this construction to be essentially solid concrete but without really good conduction from the tube walls... Not at all certain of what numbers to use.

Warmboard (the stuff with a sheet of aluminum on TOP) might be a much better choice.

Unfortunately it's only available in 1 1/8" thickness, but you should be able to use a thin tile underlayment like ¼" Dens Shield. R-value on top of the warmboard would be about 0.3 with about 1.3 below (i.e. >4x the insulation below as above) so you should have a LOT less heat going into that slab.

Total thickness (Warmboard, ¼" underlayment and ½ for tile/mortar) totals 1 7/8".

Yikes! 81" is an awfully low ceiling. Is this throughout the entire house?

As to fastening, I'm not sure--part of me says "construction adhesive" while another says "stud gun". I'd check with the mfgr. of whatever product you use--they may suggest one or either.

Don Walsh

An alternative posibility.

What is the floor comprised of at present? Stone? Tile? Carpet? A little more information would help if you can provide it.

Here is an alternative idea. While it is heresy to even discuss this on a water based board, there is always the possibility of electric radiant mats applied in thin set and covered with Ceramic or stone. Could take up a lot less of the floor to ceiling height.

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DaveGateway

Whats wrong

with BB or rad panels? Many FLW homes have been converted.
Any AC ducts to do hydro?

hr

What is the final floor covering?

The R value of the final covering would kinda drive the heat in the wrong direction, maybe? The QuickTrac product has the aluminum transfer surface on the bottom. Seems this would be a great conductor of heat downward to the slab. If the old slab is un insulated, this could be an problem.

I think you really need an insulation factor, ideally greater than the final floor covering to allow the heat out the top.

Without that thermal break, I'd be reluctant to use a radiant floor on this job. Ceilings possible? Could be done a lot thinner up there, and better R value added. Inexpensely, too.

Local codes gonna go for that ceiling height? Maybe a special exempt for one of Frankies projects

hot rod

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Robert O'Connor_7

ED..

Which FLR house?? What state??...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Ken_8

Not ours in G.R.

Thanks Bob for asking.

BTW, we are still messing with that Frank Lloyd Wrong job as I write.



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Boilerpro_3

FLW ceiling heights

Frank varied the ceiling heights considerably in his projects in order to create a variety of atmospheres that were in tune with the use of the space. He often used low ceilings in dining rooms, since the majority of peoples time in a formal dining room was seated. By lowering the ceiling, a more intimate space is provided that is in scale with how the space is used. This same idea was applied to living rooms and conversation areas, the whole idea was to create an intimate space condusive to human relationships.

The extremely high ceilings in great rooms, dining rooms, etc. today are more just grand showings that do not create the best quality of space for the usage. They are more akin, in most cases, to the fancy marble floors and granite countertops found in a scorched air heated, cheaply constructed house than a well built home for family and friends with warm comfy floors.

Which would you rather do? Sit down with some good old friends and share a couple of brews in a quiet booth in the corner of an English tavern or drink some beers in the middle of Grand Central station.

JMHO

Boilerpro

Mike T., Swampeast MO

WELL SAID, Boilerpro

What a contrast between his intentionally small and low entries and the "bell tower" entries I see today.

Ceilings are fun to manipulate in design because you can create both visual interest and influence attitudes by introducing variance.

81" is awfully low though--particuarly if used in larger spaces, but I must admit that much of that statement comes from the fact that such a ceiling is only about 4½" above my head when I'm wearing shoes...