Repair or Replace and if so how much?

TG

Hi,

I have a 2800 square foot house with Slant fin Series 15 Baseboard radiant heat. Currently I have an AMTI Heatmaker, installed with the house in 1984. At the last expensive repair call, the contractor suggested it may be time to replace the unit as parts are not readily available.

I have been gathering bids to replace the boiler and they have ranged from 9000 to 13000 dollars. I was shocked at first. I knew boilers typically range around 4k. But of course all of the bids include new manifolds, pumps etc.

I have three questions:

1. Is it wise to replace the Heatmaker now or can I keep it running cost effectively?

2. Do these bids I have received seem competitive?

3. Is it possible for a homeowner who knows basic plumbing (I have setup a couple of kitchens and bathrooms) to do all or part of the replacement in an effort to cut cost?

And one more ...I am leaning towards the Well Mclain Ultra because of the extended warranty options. But one of the contractors felt the MZ boiler was superior. Any recommendations?

Thanks

Some extra detail:

A 40 gallon tank was configured into all of the bids. The slantfin I have is configured to meet each room's requirements as opposed to wall to wall.

With the heatmaker, things are pretty good. Heat is very even through most of the house. The only exceptions are the upstairs bedrooms zone. 4 bedrooms, 2 baths. They tend to be a little on the cool side. I had to keep one bedroom door closed for my infant son, we ended up adding an electric room heater to keep it at 70 with the door closed. It was either that or turn the rest of the zone up to 75.


Lastly, I am in Utah. Due to central air requirements, hyrdro heat doesn't seem very popular here. Particularly in older homes. That may be why the bids are high.

One more thing, the configuration of the heatmaker is a little funky. They placed it dead center in the utility room. The manifold comes down from the ceiling and connects. So I am sure most of the contractors plan to remove and replace the existing plumbing.

R. Kalia

discussing prices

There is some sort of prohibition on discussing prices here, but I think general comments (rather than specific bids on jobs) are okay. Your quotes seem quite high, but you haven't said where you are (NYC prices are higher, for example) or exactly how much work needs to be done. You can certainly get an old-fashioned cast-iron boiler for much less than what you are looking at. In general the condensing boilers you are considering are a Very Good Thing, but at those prices you may never get payback.

The MZ is a solid, tried-and-true condensing boiler that will last for many decades, but it does not have a modulating burner or outdoor reset. The WM is a newer design and has both, although the available reset curves are so wacko that it might as well not have reset at all. (They asked their German designers to have the reset curve reach maximum water temperature at zero outdoor temperature---they meant F, but the Germans use C, so the reset curve hits max temp at 32F, which is loony. Bet the contractor didn't tell you about that.) Both are expensive; the Munchkin would be somewhat cheaper, although the difference in contractor's prices for the boilers is small compared to $13,000.

Extended warranties are generally an excellent deal---for the seller.

It is not a good idea to do part of the installation yourself. First, the contractor may not want to work with you because incorporating amateur work can be a pain. Second, this is something that needs to be done perfectly, or you may die of CO poisoning or frostbite. Instead, shop around for lower quotes.

Mike Kraft_2

TG

Replace would be my recommendation.You said your home has Slant Fin Model 15 hot water baseboard (HWBB)(as does mine:) ).Going with the WM Ultra is a great plan.But to get the benefit of condensing you want to keep the water temperature as low as you can.140°-130° or lower.The first temps are ideally as low as you want to go with HWBB.

What you want your contractors to do is a thourough heatloss (roomXroom)and compare the lineal footage of HWBB in each room.Lets say for instance you have a room that requires 10' of HWBB on a design day and you have 15'...... BINGO!You have the ability to derate the HWBB water temp.This example is just that .......an example.So if you have wall to wall HWBB you may be able to take advantage of a condensing boiler.

On the other hand if you have just the right amount of HWBB in each room then I would consider a cast iron boiler.Approach the stradegy of control with a few more bells and whistles.Incorporate a control(Tekmar or Taco)with outdoor reset and constant circulation.This will mix your water temperatures to specific °'s for that given moment.With constant circulation you will have a quieter,more comfortable and effcient system.

Hope this makes sense.

cheese

Weezbo

I'd consider a second opinion ....

And let me ask ,is a water maker also figured into the bid? ..... you need to hurry up in your decision however as our costs are going up signifigantly soon. Changing boilers and headers can be a bit spendy new zone valves and pumps new style ss gas pipe, flues, energy saving controls...however.......i think you could get at least one other bid from a reccomendation from your local Plumbing supply house.

Tony_8

Ultra reset

There is a module available to replace the 32F based module. Ask your rep.

Steve Miller

Parts are available

Teledyne has all the parts you need to completely rebuilt that Heatmaker. I personally think they're an ok boiler. Small footprint, it does DHW, built in buffer tank, direct vent, 87% - 89% eff. The problem is finding someone that understands them. If you do replace, make sure they understand their product because installation and service are everything.

Steve M

Ken_8

Both the W/M Ultra and the MZ are

nice units. The two entities have modest quality issues with one another. None terribly critical - almost "features" driven rather than absolute quality related.

The MZ seems better made, yet the Ultra has a whacked out (alleged to be fixed with a 0°F now) reset device, but is moderately less expensive.

You sort of get what you pay for? I love them both.

There is no clear winner on this stuff. Go with your gut here. Talk to those who have done both.

Let us know what happens - and why.



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TG

More Info

A 40 gallon tank was configured into all of the bids. The slantfin I have is configured to meet each room's requirements as opposed to wall to wall.

With the heatmaker, things are pretty good. Heat is very even through most of the house. The only exceptions are the upstairs bedrooms zone. 4 bedrooms, 2 baths. They tend to be a little on the cool side. I had to keep one bedroom door closed for my infant son, we ended up adding an electric room heater to keep it at 70 with the door closed. It was either that or turn the rest of the zone up to 75.



Lastly, I am in Utah. Due to central air requirements, hyrdro heat doesn't seem very popular here. Particularly in older homes. That may be why the bids are high.

One more thing, the configuration of the heatmaker is a little funky. They placed it dead center in the utility room. The manifold comes down from the ceiling and connects. So I am sure most of the contractors plan to remove and replace the existing plumbing.

Murph'_5

R. Kalia

have you been to this jobsite? How does it compare to the jobs you have sold or installed? what is the scope of the job with sizing and retrofitting? steps? parking? is it three hours from the nearest town? do the inspectors need a kikback? commissions to sales people? security gates? is babysitting included? have you walked this job and crunched the numbers? did we miss a few post here that does not give enough feed back to tell him "seems high better shop around" ??


Murph'

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Floyd_5

Actually,......

the WM Ultra module that you have can easily be reprogrammed to whatever reset curve that you want. There is no need to get another module. The capabilities are in the module that you have.
Getting the info that you need to do the reprogram is the problem right now. I suspect that it will become common knowledge shortly....
in fact....a many more neat features for the Ultra may be available shortly.

Floyd

R. Kalia

The best way for a homeowner to determine a fair price is to shop around. Are you opposed to competition?

Floyd_5

NO,.....

however, rarely is the low bidder going to give Mr homeowner the most bang for his buck. The original poster here is trying to get the info. needed to make an informed decsion as to whether or not the price he got is a good one. Nothing wrong with that, however as Murph' pointed out that is not what he should be getting info on.... he should be more concerned with the mechanical aspects of the job and then getting the most bang for his buck. That my friends is a major chore with so many variables and opinions flying around.....
There's an old saying... that applies here many times and often it's hard to sort it out here.....

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance.......

Baffle 'em with BS......

Floyd

TG

Murph et,al

I definetly consider myself on the "quality over quantity" side of the fence. At the same time, all of the homes I have owned previously have had force air. I am on the steep side of the learning curve for hydronic heat and I don't want to get taken a ride.

Thanks for all of the great advice so far here!