REALLY good read

MikeB34

I am a Canadian, but read this with great interest. It has many valid points, and as a retired Navy man, I agree with most of it. Remeber the past, but take of the futur. Sometimes the only path to peace is by war.

GOD bless America and her allies, the men and women who fight, because freedom isn't free..it costs.

Mike

PS this is not a joke even though the word is in the link.

http://www.strangecosmos.com/read.adp?joke_id=5662

Mad Dog

excellent

Zell Miller puts the truth first, partisan politics last. Thank you for your service, Canadian Brother. Mad Dog

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MikeB34

I lIke

His "can the cr*p and get on with what is important" attitude. The world needs more of people like him.

Constantin

Allow me to dissent

Commissions like the 9/11 have been around for a long time. Many have been used for grandstanding and it's pretty much impossible to prevent. However, it is also part of our democratic fabric to allow oversight over the functions of government.

For example, I am sure that a lot of rules and regulations have changed as a result of figuring out how the 9/11 terrorists exploited the freedoms our open society offers its citizens. Let us not forget however, that the worst domestic terrorism event prior to 9/11 was home-grown by a former Army kid who decided to blow up a federal building. Fanaticism has to be battled both here and abroad.

The actual race, religion, etc. are not the issue. The issue is the radicalization of a sufficienct number of folks to make life miserable. How else can you understand the emergence of McVeigh (a patriot?), Aum (a buddha?), or Osama (a mujahedeen?). Preventative measures are needed, but hopefully not at the cost of closing our society down. In that case, the terrorists have won through sowing fear, distrust, and intimidation.

What we need is a consistent foreign policy that is not dependant on todays agenda, but an agenda that looks 10-20 years into the future. In retrospect, providing India with nuclear technology probably was not a keen idea. Similarly, getting into bed with Pakistan after 1979 was just as misguided (remember, they had just attempted to murder everyone in the embassy by setting it on fire).

Squandering even more trust by invading a country that posed no immeadiate threat to our national security not only violated international law (i.e. the UN did not assent) but it has also created another hotbed for terrorist recruiting. The US is not going to remain the hegemon of the world forever. We better start planning for it by creating goodwill not hate.

Furthermore, while I am all for punishing terrorists, the current administrations attempts to hide behind legalese to keep "enemy combatants" from getting a fair trial is troubling. Folks, we're setting the wrong example, considering the ideals of this nation! Never mind issues like the abuse allegations coming out of Abu Gharib, etc. That's going to engender nothing but love for American POWs.

And call me crazy but nothing more than a reprimand for the folks who perpetrated the abuses in the Prison (so far)? Even the New York City police department drew sterner consequences after the Diallo case. The location, nationality, etc. of the folks under US detention should have no bearing on the situation.

Jeff Lawrence_24

Zig-Zag Zell

That's what we used to call him.

He was (I thought) a mediocre Lt. Governor and a lot of people said the only reason he ran for Governor of my great state was to get some real retirement benefits. He promised to not run for a second term, but he did. That's when I joined the ranks of people calling him Zig-Zag.

I used to drive the same route he followed going back to the Governor's mansion after a weekend at Young Harris, the college town he lived near. I distinctly remember a banner some one placed on a bridge over the highway that said "Go To He**, Zell." Someone was not happy with a decision he made as Governor.

When Paul Coverdell died, our then Governor, Roy Barnes, asked Zell to take over Paul's place in the United States Senate. "Great," I thought, "a liberal Democrat taking the place of a great man like Coverdell. Roy Barnes is an idiot."

I am proud to say I will eat those words. Senator Miller has made me proud. He has bucked the party line and followed his true beliefs. This post makes me even prouder he is MY Senator.

My only regret? He won't run again.

Thanks, Zell. You are a great man and have my support whenever you need it


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jackchips_2

Ok,

> Commissions like the 9/11 have been around for a

> long time. Many have been used for grandstanding

> and it's pretty much impossible to prevent.

> However, it is also part of our democratic fabric

> to allow oversight over the functions of

> government.

>

> For example, I am sure that a lot

> of rules and regulations have changed as a result

> of figuring out how the 9/11 terrorists exploited

> the freedoms our open society offers its

> citizens. Let us not forget however, that the

> worst domestic terrorism event prior to 9/11 was

> home-grown by a former Army kid who decided to

> blow up a federal building. Fanaticism has to be

> battled both here and abroad.

>

> The actual race,

> religion, etc. are not the issue. The issue is

> the radicalization of a sufficienct number of

> folks to make life miserable. How else can you

> understand the emergence of McVeigh (a patriot?),

> Aum (a buddha?), or Osama (a mujahedeen?).

> Preventative measures are needed, but hopefully

> not at the cost of closing our society down. In

> that case, the terrorists have won through sowing

> fear, distrust, and intimidation.

>

> What we need

> is a consistent foreign policy that is not

> dependant on todays agenda, but an agenda that

> looks 10-20 years into the future. In retrospect,

> providing India with nuclear technology probably

> was not a keen idea. Similarly, getting into bed

> with Pakistan after 1979 was just as misguided

> (remember, they had just attempted to murder

> everyone in the embassy by setting it on fire).

> Squandering even more trust by invading a country

> that posed no immeadiate threat to our national

> security not only violated international law

> (i.e. the UN did not assent) but it has also

> created another hotbed for terrorist recruiting.

> The US is not going to remain the hegemon of the

> world forever. We better start planning for it by

> creating goodwill not hate.

>

> Furthermore, while

> I am all for punishing terrorists, the current

> administrations attempts to hide behind legalese

> to keep "enemy combatants" from getting a fair

> trial is troubling. Folks, we're setting the

> wrong example, considering the ideals of this

> nation! Never mind issues like the abuse

> allegations coming out of Abu Gharib, etc. That's

> going to engender nothing but love for American

> POWs.

>

> And call me crazy but nothing more than

> a reprimand for the folks who perpetrated the

> abuses in the Prison (so far)? Even the New York

> City police department drew sterner consequences

> after the Diallo case. The location, nationality,

> etc. of the folks under US detention should have

> no bearing on the situation.

jackchips_2

Ok,

Your crazy.

Constantin

So let me get this straight...

Jackchips, am I correct to assume that you think it's OK to abuse prisoners, do away with the Geneva conventions, and suspend human rights for anyone that is not on our side? I hope you're only kidding.

Consider that some of the folks who got into trouble are prison guards in the US in real life. You cannot tell me they didn't know right from wrong, weren't trained adequately, nor that they lacked discipline... no, the big grins in the photographs indicate that these sick puppies enjoyed their handiwork!

On the other hand, one of the things that makes this nation great is that the press is free to report such abuses as well as any dissent that folks may have with the official policy. Simple-minded enemies may see such freedoms as a possible weakness, however, the US traditionally has always risen to whatever challenges it deemed fighting for (usually ones of national interest).

For example, note the exemplary coalition that George Bush Sr. assembled after an act of aggression not much unlike the current Iraq scenario - just in reverse. Now imagine that Chinese, Martians, or whoever decide to invade in order to secure our weapons of mass destruction, fix our perverted judiciary system, or to oust a persident that did not receive the majority of the popular vote. Excuses will always be found, the truth may be more elusive.

I am patiently waiting for the country to swing backto more moderate times where a national emergency is not used to create yet another bureaucracy, where vistors to our country are not treated like criminals, where suspects have a right to a fair and speedy trial, where human rights are not a nice-to-have but a must-have. Unless we lead by example, how will people know how to follow?

Mark Hunt

And I am waiting for a time when

planes are not flown into buildings.

A time when no-one walks onto a crowded bus with bombs strapped to their chest.

A time when my children are not considered "infidels".

A time when no American would consider burning the flag.

A time when Americans put America first.

I hate it when the Wall gets political, I really do.

The folks that have been here at The Wall for a few years know pretty much on which side of the political fence we all fall. It's a given.

And herein lies the difference. I do not want to kill those that disagree with me, the people we are fighting would.

A "free press" is not what makes this country great Constantin. It is a free people that make this country great. No other country in the world has the same freedoms we do. Those freedoms did not come cheap. Lots of people died. What would have happened if the continental congress voted to do nothing unless the "world community" was with them? Would we have gotten a "coalition of the willing"? Answer is no. So this wonderful country we live in was started on it's own. No U.N., no NATO, just the people that wanted to be free.

To date there have been 7 people identified as alleged criminals in the Iraqi prisoner issue. 7 out of 130,000 troops. Where was the outrage when those American citizens were mutilated in Iraq? Where was the outrage when Saddam and his sons were putting people through shredders and dumping chemical weapons on the Kurds?( Oh, that's right! He didn't have any!)

UN resolution 1441 clearly laid down an ultimatum for Saddam. He scoffed at it. Now we are finding out about the UN oil-for-food scandal. Funny how the loudest mouths against any action against Saddam are reported to be the biggest benefactors of this scam.

The first Gulf war was fought when Saddam invaded a neighboring country. Where was the "imminent threat" then? Was the world REALLY that concerned with what happened to Kuwait? Or was that a "good" war for oil?

A truck load of biological weapons was intercepted in Jordan last week. The Jordanian government says they came from Syria. We have had intelligence reports that stated that Saddams WMD's went to Syria before the war, while Saddam stalled Hans Blix and Co.

FACT, He had WMD's, HE USED THEM.

Now you tell me, WHERE ARE THEY!?

You better pray to God that they are not in the hands of people who consider my kids "infidels".

Now back to heating please.

P.S. No sane person will ever defend torture, and those that are guilty will be punished. Are you claiming that the ENTIRE US military is in the business of torture? Are you claiming that our President sent the troops there to torture people? I would be willing to bet that a few months ago you made statements along these lines, "I support the troops, but I do not agree with this war".


Mark H

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Murph'_5

Your \"Visitors\"

Are the ones keeping the body bags full !!! Wut the hell is it with this crap you a spewin Constatine, You seem like a well read person that cannot think about anything that is not spoon fed to you. What a crack-up!! Well I guess if things do not work out you can just pack up and pull roots and set yourself up anywhere!! Perhaps you can adopt and take full responsibility for a few of these savages you are so hell-bent on protecting. perhaps they will live with your family while you are off saving the world by yourself with your "Freedom Flowers" !! ****, you obviously have no compassion for the innocents that were KILLED !! You need to take your agenda elsewhere, perhaps you will fit better in europe, They love to bash our country!! Perhaps there is another page where you can bash the trade after seeking the points of Knowledge you request. ride baby ,ride!! (of course after you had your fill at the troft)



Murph'

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Darin Cook_3

Freedom in America

is hated by many in this world. This may not seem like a religous war to us here but it is 100% a religous war to the terrorists. The morally repugnant actions taken by a fraction of a percent of our troops will be punished. That was not acceptable. You want to read about torture about five and a half years worth, read "The Ways We Choose" Lessons for life from a POW'S experience, by Dave Carey. He spent a few extra years in Vietnam than a presidential hopeful who likes to brag up his 3 months incountry. His tale of captivity will make getting cold water splashed on you by the bad Americans seem pretty weak. As it turns out they endured that experience by having faith in God, something that seems to be lacking in our country and something for which our president has been criticized for. The war had to be taken to the enemy before they took it to us again. The policy of appeasement that some people would like to have with the terrorists will most assuredly get many more Americans killed. I do not want to understand how they feel, they killed my countrymen. They need to be removed from existence. They say over and over they want us (the infidels) dead. As was said by Mark, the countries who did not want to support the coalition were as it turns out the ones who were getting the oil under the table. People forget very quickly all of the great things America has done for the world and our sacrifices. The French were chanting "US go" home before the 1940's were over, that was the second time we had saved them. Before everybody starts going all guilty about what the US has done take a look at everyone elses records then look at ours, WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS.

jackchips_2

First off, Constantin

you asked us to "Call me crazy", so I obliged. I apologize if you did not mean it.

Second, I did not put words into your writing so please refrain from putting mine into yours.

Third, Dan has consistently asked us to refrain from making this a political forum but occasionaly we stray based on fighting words such as yours. It has been difficult to refrain but.....

God bless America and our ability to disagree without being disagreeable.

Mad Dog

Couldn't have said it any better, Mr Hunt.

Look, Constantin, you haven't been around very long and maybe you forgot why you came here. It gets political here more often than it should, but all the regulars here "try" to refrain from it. Tempers and passions flare up very easily, especially at this time of war. Instead of taking you to task for what you have said (Mr Hunt already did it for me) I am asking you politely to please refrain from inflammatory accusations and diatribe against my country AND this will not have to get down to a contentious and base situation. You could have voiced your disapproval without going that far. Mad Dog

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MikeB34

WHEW!!!

While I am all for finding out how to stop futur 9/11s, my post was not intended to stir the pot.. I just thought that the man raised several issues and made many valid points.

Too much time is wasted (read your tax $)finding who is to blame..it CANNOT be done. These hearings should be for determining preventative measures not finger pointing and grand standing.

The "not my fault mentality" is becoming tiresome. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't (i.e. the guy who puts a nail gun to his head, pulls the trigger and sues the manufacturer for getting hurt. He's not at fault...there was no warning!(HELLO!!!!))

It seems to me (and remember its not my country, but I follow your politics as they influence mine) that allthey want to do is say its not OUR party's fault...vote for us to avoid it. Bulls**t.Te lines of logic can go further and further. Someone helped Saddam when Iran was the bad guy...are they to blame? You can go forever, I just felt that the man had an interesting take on the situation that I think many people don't see because of the flim-flam going on.

I apologize to Mr. Holohan and everyone else. The wall is not for politics, and I inadvertantly started a thread that became one. It was not my intent.

Mr. Holohan, please feel free to kill this thread.

Mike

Constantin

Gentlemen,

Calling on Karl Jaspers, we're going to have to agree to disagree. You have your perspective about what this country ought to stand for, I have mine, yet all three of us are Americans. I do not disagree at all with Mark Hunt and Mad Dog that there are many freedoms that the US has hard fought for, nor that the vast majority of the US military has been acting honorably and with incredible restraint.

The six that have gotten reprimands over the prison affair thus far are NCO and CO's. Another six MP's face criminal charges. Whatever minority they were in the scope of the US military, they have done enormous damage to the standing of the US forces in the Middle East. The system is working though as the new General in charge of Iraqi prisons has pledged to turn around cases quicker, eliminate abuse, humiliation, etc. Hopefully, Iraqis will appreciate our concern for their treatment.

However, when you have a quiet moment and when passions are not as high as now, please consider if the current administration is treating the symptoms or the roots of worldwide terrorism in its war on terror.

My perspective on what would constitute a better long term foreign policy happens to be quite different from that of the current executive administration. However, that does not mean I do not support the troops. In fact, I hope every day that more Iraqis will come to the conclusion that bombing, maiming, or otherwise opposing the occupying forces is not in their interest.

Peace be with you and let's get back to the actual topic of the wall. Hopefully, this will be my last political post and not nearly as inflammatory as the previous one. Cheers!

Constantin

Well said...

...and I apologize for putting words into your mouth, I certainly didn't mean to. In fact, I was downright emotional after bringing mom to the hospital. They tell you not to drive when something bad happens in your life, I will try to do the same when it comes to posting on the wall.

As for fighting words, it goes both ways. You guys would probably not appreciate it either if I started posting links to political opinion pieces that run counter to your points of view. I took the bait, jumped in, and now look where we are.

jackchips_2

I've liked

your style for a while, C. Now even more.

I hope "Mom" is ok.

Constantin

Let's see

... without getting into specifics, she's still on oxygen, still on the drip, etc. They say she may be out in a week, full recovery is set around a month. So, as we say in German there is luck in unluck. At least there is no permanent damage... and thanks for your concern!

And now for some wall-relevant content: I got to appreciate the nice hydronic heating job at the hospital. Warm, smooth floors, even temperatures throughout the building. Very comfortable. Can't wait to have them in my home.

Mark Hunt

Give Mom my best


and I hope she has a speedy recovery.

As far as I am concerned, the political discussion is over and we can agree to disagree.

Back to BTU's!

Best wishes!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

No worries Mike


We are usually able to police ourselves, but sometimes the "mediator" needs to step in.

This is a perfect example of why America works. Passion.

Regardless of which side of an issue Americans take, we will ALWAYS defend eachothers right to to express that opinion.

Take care!

Mark H

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Mad Dog

Alright.................................

But if you are anything like me, something will get you going again. Just try to keep it calm and anti-inflammatory...believe me...I know its hard. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

I'll put your moms in my prayers

MAD DOG

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