Radiant & Steam

Ken_8

Larry decided to have his 6'5" basement dug out. He planned on making the existing 23' X 24' basement a serious entertainment center and awesome rec. room.

After he had the room dug out by a mason contractor, he asked me to do the following:

1. Removed the 10 year old, oil-fired steam boiler and install a new gas one - after the floor was dug out some 20"

2. He also wanted the no longer needed 275-gallon oil tank pulled from the basement and the new floor slab to be heated by in-concrete radiant.

3. We did a rad count, figured the EDR, did a heat load calc. on the basement radiant, and designed the radiant P-A-P tubing layout.

4. Larry also wanted the existing steam pipes to be removed and all the branches to each rad shortened to reduce the soffet size required to hide the split main(s) - as well as the returns for the entire heating system.

5. We removed all the piping except for the radiator angle stop drop nipples and installed all new steam piping in the entire basement, adding a small radiator for the previously unheated entrance foyer.

6. Then we installed f.g. pipe insulation over the new supplies (except c.i. fittings). We also put 3' of Yorkflex over the P-A-P floor tube to protect the vulnerable floor penetrations from physical shear forces and protection from the masons float. We left enough PAP above the slab to tie directly into the radiant circulator outlet.

7. We arrived the day before the floor slab pour and installed 1" thick rigid insulation on the masons vapor barrier and tied the P-A-P radiant tubing to the 6" re-inforcing wire - which was raised over an inch off the slabs rigid on-ground insulation. We also had the mason place 2 X 8' 1" thick insulation along the pour perimeter to minimize edge loss.

8. All new Gorton vents on each rad - as well as both mains was a given. The system was balanced for the first time since he moved in many years ago. He cannot praise the comfort level enough. It is almost embarrassing.

9. The radiant was created by way of our using the tankless coil and a simple 4006 aquastat to turn the boiler on and off upon a call for heat in the basement zone 'stat (a simple T87F) via a 24 X 115 volt 'stat relay (R832 I think)

10. The steam sisde is controlled by a new T8602D with one-hour cycle rate and anticipatory logic.

11. The framers come in this week to build a mechanical closet for the boiler and water heater (which was re-used) and frame out the room, the new bath and the wine cellar (no radiant under that area!).

This is certainly NOT the first time we ordered a steam boiler with a tankless to provide a water zone. But is our first opportunity to install RADIANT-water off a steam boiler.

One question for you all:

Larry likes it so much, he now wants us to install staple up under the exsiting kitchen. The connections and tie-in to the system is a no brainer. The problem comes with the exsiting kitchen floor bays. Some time ago, Larry noted the freezing floors in the kitchen and since 1/3 is over a basement connected crawl space, opted to have foam insulation sprayed up into each floor bay between and all over the floor joist cavities.

He now wants a price for staple up.

Anybody got a suggestion of how to remove the 1 to 2 inch thick foam on the underside of the kitchen sub-floor ao I can get the joist bay cavity to actually get the warmth of my staple-up copper tubing into the sub-floor?

We tried scraping with a wide blade putty knife and then a razor scraper more typically used for removing wall paper. The results were so labor intensiove that we think two guys would take 10 hours a piece just to properly get 90+% of the ureafoam off enough to not diminsh transfer within the bays.

The added labor costs to remove the foam is a deal breaker IMHO.

After done, we would install 4" thick reflective surface rigid insulation flush with the joist "tails" creating a sealed bay with 3" air void around the tubing and sub-floor bottom face.

Any idea about gettin the foam out of there easily?

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jerry scharf

just thinking out loud

Ken,

That foam is really good insulation, it would be nice to save it. Is there a way you can leave most of it in place and still find a way to get the tube thermally connected?

The first thought is to carve and clean a small channel out of the foam to get to the surface and put the tube in it. It would be less of this stuff to remove and an installation process could be figured out. Maybe you could cut the foam in on a V all the way to the bottom of the floor, break it out carefully, clean up the small spot, then glue the V back in.

I thought about ways to bore under the foam, but I thought that the foam would want to stick to the pex as you pulled in through.

jerry

jerry scharf

oops

tombig

Ken

How about one of those paint stripper wire wheelie dealies on an angle drill. I remember they used to sell them on TV.You know...like pocket fisherman. It's not like a wire brush. The bristles were loose and floppy and used centrifugal to get em rigid. I'll bet you can find something similar at a big box or hardware. Messy but might remove material in a hurry. Don't forget the goggles and leather gloves!!

Uni R

Warmboard

Any chance you can add the heat from above and just leave that insulation?

Robert O'Connor_7

???

How about using a router or cuting channels in it say 90% through it, then use a chisel to break it out cleanly??

Ken_8

I like your idea but,

the whole idea of heating the bay and insulating under it would be defeated because the remaining foam would prevent the thermal transfer I so desperately need.

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Ken_8

All good ideas!

The wheels are turning. Smoke coming from both ears...

I was toying with a weed whacker with monofiliment steel wire.

Osha? Nyet!

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