Boiler Suggestions for confused home owner

hr

Actually the ASME

test is a water side pressure test. As I understand it, it does not cover any of the additional devices. UL and others take over there.

hot rod

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hr

Cast Iron boilers and pumps

are failing big time in many radiant areas. With luck you can catch them as the black threaded nipples rot off and take the casting threads along with them.

However the cause seems to be tied tightly to PB and other non barrier tube systems.

Interestingly pump volutes spring leaks where the direction arrows are stamped (the thinest part of the casting)

Seem 'em!

Stainless and aluminum also have tight tolerences for water quality. Aluminum and copper are very ph sensitive, and stainless to chlorides.

Time will tell how the alloys hold up.

Where's my ceramic/ polymer boiler?

hot rod

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Nick Z._2

i have to chime in...

I usually don't. But I have done quite a few of these.
I have the engineer fig size and I figure size by Raditaion. It always comes up the same size boiler. Maybe luck maybe chance, maybe I need to find a new eng. But they always work well. I use W-mc gold with a bypass.Again I will say maybe I've just been lucky, but even if ahouse calls for 100,000BTU and the rad. will put 160,000 You have to split the diff. somehow.
I also think the number of heating deg. days in your area should determine how much you should spend on a system.

Mark Hunt

Ceramic/polymer!


Now your talkin'!!!!!!

It's only a matter of time.



Mark H

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jerry scharf

more fuel for the condensing subject

Let's knock out a few of the myths related to radiators and condensing boilers.

The water needs to be too hot:

For most anyone involved, they have done some insulation and not removed radiation, so the radiation it too large for the heat load. This means they want lower temperature water to run nicely. If they haven't, do not pass go, do not collect $200...

Even still, the supply temperature is too hot:

It's the return temps that count. If that's below 130F, you win. So if you need 150F and you're running 20F delta T, you get condensing. If you ned a bit more, see if you can get a higher delta T by slowing the flow down.

Still the return temperature it too hot:

What you partner condensing with outdoor reset, the temerature drops as the load decreases. Even if there are some number of hours/days where the boiler can't condense, the rest of the time it will be saving you plenty of $.

But they are too complex:

They certainly are more complex. This demands a higher level of skill and knowledge for the people involved with the design/install/maintenance of the system. Good for those who have it, bad for those who don't. You want a partnership in saving money, and your tehnical team is a key part of that. Again, good for those who have it. There are certainly parts out there, and your skilled technical team will know where to get them.

Not everyone can do this:

So what? That can be said about boiler heating in general. You're in for high quality to make savings.


To bring all this to a case in point, ME has his Munchkin
T50 delivering 165F to the indirect, and it's still condensing most of the time. He started by having a wide delta T. Even though it doesn't condense as the water gets to 140F, you're demanding the most BTUs when it's heating large amounts of cold water, so you're still saving $.



Mike,

Sorry you got sucked into this whole debate that may have made things confusing. If you haven't insulated and sealed, start there. Once that's done, with your over-sized radiators and an outdoor reset condesning boiler, you can certainly save on fuel bills. The skill and knowledge of your heating contractor relating to the equipment chosen and the gravity conversion are critical to having this be successful. I would jump at having boilerpro do a consultation, and find a installer who is either extremely knowledgable or happy to work and learn with another pro for an succcessful install.

best of luck,
jerry

Boilerpro_3

Thanks are due again....Thanks, Jerry... Boilerpro

Luke Lefever

Wow Jerry-

I wish I could have articulated what you said... right on... nuff said... wish more people would take the time to get a clue. Luke

Kal Row

simplify/clarify some of my points

Nothing will save you more money than tekmar controls both boiler and thermostats especially, if you go with 2 stage tekmar 512’s, since your system, has a lot of water mass, that will hold a lot of heat, once it is up to operating temp.

My point that “a Weil-McLain cv-gold or a Burnham revolution, are OFFICIALLY the correct fit for your system” - my reason for the word “official” is that, most residential hydronics systems contain about 25gal max (in my exp) – a gravity conversion contains many times that – so while a reg system runs with cool return temps in the morning and early evening for about 10minutes tops and not much to worry about , a gravity conversion with 50-100 gal of water, will have cold return temps for apx 1hour a day – and that will cause significant corrosion so the cv-gold or the revolution – being internally mixed down – takes care of this problem – as of course does the more expensive boilers designed to run with cooler return temps.

Now – if a radiant slab, with 90-110 degree water, can give off infrared light – so can a radiator with the same water temps or even fin-tube baseboards - we have done that subject to death in another thread with concurrence from noel of slant-fin, who is a pretty huge supplier of fin-tube baseboards, – as we speak the are working on updating the temp tables for their radiation


so NO jerry – the water DOESN’T, “have be HOT”, except on the coldest of days – running a condensing boiler or a mixed down cast iron at a more steady states will give a more comfortable home and fewer $$$$ spent - I have a customers running a SlantFin sx150 simple cast iron boiler piped with pri-sec-vari-injection a-la tekmar 361, and the boiler runs 2 minutes out of 15 on a 45 degree day – the boiler loop cycles between 145 and 172 during that time – and the customer is saving a bundle over the system I replaced with the exact same 83% AFUE rating - the new manifold and tekmar did more for him than any boiler could – with my systems – the boiler is JUST a heat source, and it’s rating doesn’t affect the total cost all that much – proper zoning, balancing, stopping gravity heat migration, outdoor reset, smart thermostats like the tekmar 5xx ‘s – improved that much more!!!

so we go back to keeping it simple, relatively inexpensive, and easy to install, since doing nice manifolds is expensive, – and mike wanted through the wall venting, and he was already looking at stuff like the monitor or the takagi, so, for such a person, the ULTRA is the best fit – In my un-humble opinion
I attached a base diagram for an ULTRA install – including piping for their “PLUS” domestic hot water


ps – mike – with all that cast iron – I recommend you use bronze pumps – to whose body, the iron-oxide in your system, is less likely to stick to, and cause problems
also – to find out roughly how much water you system contains – so that you can know how much chemical you need to clean it with, you need to shut off the supply and drain your system (of course you need to open the bleeds on the top floor), then, with no other water usage in the house, re-fill you system recording the beginning and ending cubic ft on your water meter, 1 cubic foot = 7.48051945 US gallons - then add at least 10% to the total - cause I have yet to find a system that’s even close to fully drainable!!! – if you don’t have a water meter then you have knock yourself out with 5 gallon buckets unless your heating professional has a portable water meter he can drain though – though i think most heating professionals guess pretty close, with a thorough inspection of the system – I do it all the time and I can’t even tell you how I do it – it’s weird

eleft_4

SEE POST: Gas vs. Oil operating costs

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Must disagree!

[Referring to "typical" gravity conversions--in other words nearly every hot water heating system installed before WW-II.]

Standing iron radiators deliver LOTS of heat at temperatures WELL below 180°!!!!!

The problem is when you think you HAVE to produce water at 180° to supply them!!!! Never gonna' get it, never gonna' get it...

Floyd_5

Wow, Glenn....

I'm surprised.... I never thought that you would show such an obvious bias.... You have always been very honest and forthright with you posts here, but....

I have to disagree strongly with you an this one!!
A year ago I would have agreed with you, but my own experience over the past winter has proven to me things that I would have never thought possible.
Upon installation in my own house of a mod. con. boiler, I have found that with the old Burhnam Baseray CI. baseboard that is in my old house that has NO insulation and old drafty windows, I was able to heat the house at -20 with a wind, with a max. of 170* water. At that temp. I was running 140* return temps. and the boiler was still condensing and the flue temps. were usually running at or below the return water temps.
Now, the days of the boiler running at those temps. are very few and as the reset as increased the temps. the boiler has performed even better!!!! There has been virtually NO time this winter that the boiler has not been running condensate!!!!
Now, as far as the reliability.... I have intentionally tried to abuse the boiler... I have another boiler hooked up on an agricutural application that runs the boiler 24/7/365... the boiler hasn't missed a beat since 9/16/03, which may not be that long yet, but it is great considering that the old CI. boiler that was there had to have the pilot relit a number of times in that amount of time and the the higher eff. boiler has ALREADY paid for it's self in fuel savings!!!!!! I figure that I will have put that boiler through the same amount of running in 1 year as a normal res. boiler will get in 4 years. expect that it will not experience the on/off cycles, because there are none.


The whole point is that many houses, espec. older ones have the radiantion WAY oversized, as has been documented many times over and has been so elegantly talked about by Dan...
AND, if a little thought is given, new construction can easily be oversized as well and the additional cost of the radiantion can more than be made up very easily with the new boilers.
Yes, there has been some issuses with reliability of boilers in the past, I have worked on more Hydrtherm Pulse boilers, and cursed them more than I care to remember....however that does not have to discourage me from continueing to press on and try to make good discernable choices about the future and the fact that the future is in the hands of the companies that are willing to learn from the mistakes of the past, and use the best technology available to them to make good products that will push the envelope as far as possible. The increases lately in gas prices, and fuel prices in general will only serve to magnify the need for more eff. heating appliances.....

Glenn, your a wonderful person, and a great teacher!!!!
Please keep an open mind on the things of the future....
Low temp. heating is going to be where the industry is going......
Just my .02 of a rant for a Sunday night.....
take it for what you think it is worth....

Floyd

Unknown

Thanks Floyd

I wasn't neccessarily intending to be biased in my post. I only entered this thread in response to Bill's post to possibly explain what his feelings were based on HIS real life experiences with attempting to keep contractors equipped with repair parts to get boilers running again. Bill's company in Colorado does a wonderful job representing all of the product lines they sell and above and beyond that, providing the backup service and field support.

I too believe the future is with condensing and modulating products. Realistically though, the percentage of these products being installed in todays marketplace is still rather small.....growing but small. The other major concern regarding state of the art equipment installation is the individual qualifications of the tradesmen. The folks here on The Wall are for the most part, "above and beyond" the norm! That has a lot to do with why they strive to learn more and more. The folks here are unfortunately a small fraction of the installers out there and a good many of them are not equipped to properly set up today's modern equipment or to pipe it correctly. This makes my job more challenging as time goes on. Sorry if you misconstrued my statements and keep up the good work Floyd.

Glenn

MikeAR

Thank you all!

I must say, I've gotten more information than I ever expected from you guys. After taking all this in, I am leaning towards a Dunkirk Quantum 90-150 since it is condensing, fairly simple in design, and vents with pvc. And as far as I can tell, I should be able to have it piped directly through my big old pipes without messing around with primary/secondary piping. Thanks again, and if anyone has heard anything good or bad about the Quantum feel free to let me know.

Luke Lefever

I like the Quantum series

We've used several of the Dunkirk Quantums. The only thing I don't like about them is that when they came out with the 150,175,200s, the pressure switches were at a location that could collect condensate and it would lock out. I'm sure they have that corrected by now. Nice boiler, fair price. Good choice. Luke

Boilerpro_3

I believe they are temporarily off the market

They were having problem with coreshift in the boiler casting and pulled them until the problem could be resolved. For a coverted gravity system like yours with a properly sized boiler ( a 150 is a VERY large boiler for a home) you almost never get above condensing temps due to the huge thermal mass of the system absorbing heat. On a typical winter day I'd expect your system to be running well into the condensing range probably about 100 to 110F return. These systems do not need very hot water typically.

I found many that appeared to have been designed to run at about 160F on the coldest day of the year. Then with insulation added to the home and air tightening that number drops considerably. In my own home, the supply temp on the coldest day of the year would be about 120 with the original radiation. For 90% of the heating season it would be about 105F with a 95 F return. I alos see little befit for outdoor reset on single zone converted gravity systems. Because of thier thermal mass the water temperture changes very slowly when the boiler is firing. Typically, I've found the system temp rises about 1F for each minute of boiler firing for a converted gravity system in a home without improved insulation, weatherstripping, etc. On a typical winter day the boiler firing cycle is about 20 minutes when cycled by a standard honeywell round thermostat, which translates to only a 20 F rise in system temp. Most outdoor reset controllers are typically set for a 20F dif, so they do little or notheing to improve performance. If you have a zoned system, that may be another story.

I have several Q-90-200's on bids right now. I agree that it appears to be a good choice. Low pressure drop through heat exchanger saves on pump electrical usage, simple design, and soon to have a modulating burner.


Boilerpro