Gas vs. Oil operating costs

Willie Corbett

I am a homeowner in Downeast Maine who is strongly considering radiant heat for a home we are building there. I am convinced of the comfort benefit, but would like some basic answers about the following:

(1) What is a "ball park" estimate of operating cost difference [in per cent not actual $] when contrasting boilers heated by (a) fuel oil and (b) LP gas?

I'm hoping that there are rules of thumb for those of you with experience so I can make a reasonable choice. Since price of the fuel is a key variable, please assume current prices.

(2) A second key question for me is "should I assume any significant savings in operating costs for radiant vs baseboard? The home is fairly conventional; 2 stories, 2500 ft2 of living space, hopefully well insulated, etc

(3) Lastly, on a percentage basis, what should I expect the system installed purchase price difference to be when contrasting BB vs radiant assuming the crude statements in (2) above?

Any info from you folks on "The Wall" is much appreciated!

Ken_8

ANSWERS...

1) There is no diference. There are boilers that burn LP and oil that can both deliver 92+%. Both, surprisingly similar in price too.

2) No. The diffeences will perhaps favor the radiant but with staple up (assuming no gypcrete concepts) the fast response time of HWBB (hot water baseboard) may be slightly better? The infiltration factors however are minimized with radiant. Still the answer is a ... No.

BTW, fuel oil costs and LP costs are somewhat "lockstepped" since LP is made from oil. Around here, LP is 40% more expensive per BTU available than # 2. This however is a hugely regional issue and only what you find in your part of Maine is relevant!

3) The installed cost of a properly designed system would be so close with either design that without a ton more information - would be insignifcant IMHO.

With more input, like second floor ceiling access - or for that matter ceiling radinat in the attic under the insulation - may tip the scales one way or the other. Wood floors? Carpetted? Tile floors?

A mix of zones and combining radiant AND HWBB might be an ideal solution!

One thing I can tell you for certain. If the two of you are going to be alone, zone as much as practical! Why pay to heat a room no one will be in? Have "guest" rooms on separate zones and leave those 'stats at 60 or less. When guests come, raise the 'stat and let them be comfy.

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\"Maine\" doug

My home is Downeast and we heat

with oil. Radiant on one floor and panel rads on main floor. Panel rads because of the 14 foot ceiling, the rads offer radiant heat, quick response, convection heat for under window cold draft prevention. Radiant floor for even heat, warm feet in the winter, stable temperatures, we don't even have a thermostat for the radiant floor, the little box does it all. Much lower fuel costs than with the old steam boiler. Suggest you get a reliable American boiler with a real chimney as service can be an issue in these parts as you may already know.

Warmfoot

Comparing Energy Costs

If your good at math, check this link out. It will help you decide. http://www.masterhydronics.com/info/energy.html

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC

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Constantin

Oil vs. other fuels

Hi and welcome to the Wall. I'm a mere homeowner like yourself, but I have been considering similar issues. Perhaps my math is correct for once!

1) Boilers may give you the same efficiency whether they use gas or LP to be fired. Typically, Oil boilers are between 80-86% efficient, while it is not unusal to see gas appliances go up to 96% efficient (Munchkin, Vitodens, etc.) per the AFUE standard (which has a number of issues, IMHO).

However, the underlying fuel costs are usually very different, depending primarily on where you live. To bring it down to the common denominator, let's assume for now that the heating plant is going to be equally efficient whether you use gas or oil.

• 1 Gallon of Fuel Oil (#2) has about 140,000 BTUs of energy in it.
• 1 Gallon of LP has about 92,000 BTU of energy potential.

Thus, Gallon for Gallon, fuel oil delivers about 50% more heating energy than LP. Next, consider the prices for each fuel.

• Fuel Oil can be currently secured at $1.15 per gallon for the season (Boston)
• Propane cost about $1.50 per gallon on average this winter

If you factor both heating value and average cost, this makes oil about 1/2 as expensive as LP in Boston ($0.82 per 100kBTU for oil versus $1.62 per 100kBTU for LP). Thus, even if you go with a less efficient oil burner, it is unlikely that you'll make up the 100% difference.

2) It is said that radiant homes "feel" warmer and hence allow you to set the thermostat lower than with other forms of heat. I'll bow to the experts here who may have done a conversion and can comment more intelligently on the virtues of energy savings via radiant floor heat.

3) No idea. In a cement slab application, I imagine that radiant would be quite cost competitive. Elsewhere, I imagine that most forms of baseboard would be less expensive. Cheers!

eleft_4

hopefully well insulated, etc ????

Boiler efficiency doesn't mean squat if the house is not built with efficiency in the in the plan. Think $ saving not a number from a testing device. Figure the heat loss to a minimum when you plan the building. Plan to keep the heat inside. Ask the builder questions. Keep an eye on things. You are paying! That makes you the Boss, right.

al

GaryDidier

cost

Willie,
Cost dfifferences for oil and lpg can be substantial.

1 To start out #2 oil has 144,000 BTU . LPG has 94,000 BTU. Thats a difference of 50% less for the gas. In my area {upstate NY} LPG systems generally cost double what it would to heat with oil.

2 LPG is historically more costly per equivelant gallon than oil.

3 "Hopefully well insulated" What does that mean? Your best investment no matter what your heat system, is a tight and well insulated structure. The added expense of insulation will pay back in comfort, reduced energy consumption and less heating infrastructure to do the job.

4 Radiant is more costly than BB but is more comfortable and does require less energy. I dont think the cost savings would offset the added cost of the radiant.

5 There are too many variables to give cost estimates for different systems in this forum.

I hope this can help you.
Gary from Granville

Steve Eayrs

Costs differ in different areas.


For dollar spent to do the same thng, we pay about 50% for LP than oil, on average. LP is usually higher priced per gallon and also the btu difference per/gallon, as other mentioned.

Steve

S Ebels

I'd make for cryin' out loud sure

That there was no "hopefully" in the insulated part of the equation if'n it were mine. The best heating system in the world will still cost a bundle to operate if the building envelope is not done properly. Until you address that part of the equation you're wasting your time thinking about which fuel or which boiler is more efficient. SEAL IT UP MAN!!!

Example: I just fininshed a heat loss on a 6,043 sq ft home that has a design (-5*) heat loss of 58,000 btu's. That's right....less than 10 btu's / sq ft. It's all radiant floor and standing cast iron, wrapped about as tight as you can get it, R-27 in the walls R-50 in the ceilings, Low-E glass and doors and very importantly, they elected to use heat recovery for the ventilation air. The house will be tight but healthy. You are spending the money so don't let the builder dictate what is going to be put in.

Weezbo

you are asking whats the best deal?

on the fuel issue,what is available what are the automatic delivery times do they have a service dept.? my crystal ball tells me if there is a certainty its that this comming year will be making belivers out of the lot of us as to it being uncertain at best.fuel prices are going all over the place currently...basically whatever is sold the most in your area , well, that is my best guess as to the fuel supply for the boilers burner.
The comfort issue is equally as enigmatic as to what you the human being determines as comfortable... to me warm is good i like to be warm...sometimes it is particularily cold outside and i want to be warm fast, faster than that, hot now! hence the sence of having zones and responsive zones ...my car can care less if it is 50 or 70 F its happy:)so maybe our suggestions would be our preferences and not yours. And as with all people we have our own individual ideas of being comfortable.i suppose i inflict my ideas onto others as its what makes sence to me.it is usually best to do your own thinking and get some wise counsel before embarking on a course of action...i am not too wise so i try to keep things pretty much the same...i like radiant however i like the idea of heat NOW! also,some times cool is good,i like cool lucky for me That is never far away:) so sometimes i express this to the buyers and see if they are also of like mind,makes my job easier.my thought is it dove tails with the financial comfort also.
which brings us to the question of well how much is the cost of baseboard vs radiant...well,we might have to be a bit more specific see? for example a radiant garage floor may meet the cars needs easily after all it isnt going to start whining if the temp is 20 degrees colder than where you'd like it to be,conversely were it 90 where you were liking to be ...you might not be all that inclined to be as enduring.so, in essence ,alot depends on the level of control you wish to have for an area of your home. honestly ,that is the best idea that i have for you. some reason to determine where to put your trust early into the project.if your only interested in zoning the whole house on one zone and find it suitable for your needs then you may be easier to please than most.
so i kinda have to say that you might want to express your ideas on what you want more specifically then get someone to stop by the location and give you another viewpoint from another orientation as it were...maybe someone who lives in your area who can arrange for you to visit another of thier installs and get the homeowners casual experience over a cup of coffee. maybe there are things that the home owner wanted and wishes they hadnt....maybe there are things about their choises that might influence your decisions for the long term...
mostly i only do new construction,and these are spec homes, we speculate that people will purchase these homes over another for various qualities they have,every year we jump up market for a spec that provides an opportunity for first time home buyers to basically purchase a home with a few more convieniences a bit more space and carefully considered zones of texture and comfort ...yah custom burgoise has some of the same yet it is usually built like the zebra/ cheeta/ southern Xian /modern egyptian /space shuttel/ ranchero de mousilini. seems money is usually no object ...
the eigth remodel on the place is underway and the thing hasnt been finished yet:)) they drag on and on as the home buyer changes thier particular take on the individious distinctions of electrical lightning bolts on metallic wallpaper so close to the spinneret ... fundamentally it is usually due to what they dreamed up yesterday:))) hey! maybe a half hour ago:) three years later they go to sell the thing ummm... hmmm.... the plumbers left just a few weeks ago...it's New! why dont anybody want it?
your mind is probably reeling now...sorry:( i tend to blather a bit.
i might reccommend a buderas with out thier control brain ,oil fired riello f5 combination radiant Gypcrete staple up,base board and towel warmers and a vanee hrv ..and another guy might suggest a condensing boiler with all radiant ;pannels,ceiling ,wall, perimiter, slab ,gypcrete and staple ups with a life breath hrv. our bids might be close and the operational costs might be similar maint might be at variance savings might be at variance or not...depends on alot of considerations. were we too far apart on inital costs and long term costs the bid proposals might be a source of viability of our businesses.Our thoughts may help narrow down what you are seeking...dont forget insulation is the key... and thinking the things through clearly...first.

Ken_8

Like I said...

Area fuel costs vary wildly!

Boston at $1.15/gallon?

Here in Jersey it's $1.52/

Go figure

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Constantin

I'd love to go there

But with an older house, there isn't much room unless you want to redo every single window. Even with closed cell polyurethane, the best we can hope for is R24 in the wall sections that do not have studs in them. With wall studs, the whole thing gets pulled down once more.

We are going to seal up the roof deck from below and insulate the floor between the attic and the house as well. However, I doubt that a R30 roof and a R19 floor add up to R50...

Yet, with all this work, we still have a designed heat loss of 116kBTU at -15F that I'm trying to cover. So my hat's off to you for being able to prevent so much heat transfer. Hopefully, it reflects well on the AC choices as well.

By the way, how did you account for the HRV? Don Sleeths program has no support for them, so I simply adjusted the infiltration rates to coincide with the desired air changes x (1-recovery efficiency).

Constantin

Gas prices only seem to go higher...

.. the further you go up the "straw" from the texas and Appalachian gas transmission lines. While Boston has a LNG terminal, it only goes so far in alleviating the gas prices up here.

The last time I reviewed my gas bill, it was about $1.37 total per therm (NStar Residential Heating Plan). Of that, $0.93 was just for transmission, the rest for the underlying fuel. Mind you, I can get a contract for heating oil that is less expensive for each BTU delivered than the transmission cost that NStar levies.

Call me crazy, but I have the feeling that gas prices are going to remain positively correlated to oil prices and hence, even with a less efficient heating plant I should come out ahead with oil.

Ken_8

Funny you should mention that...

Greenspan yesterday was quoted as saying we desperately need more natural gas production in this country or prices will skyrocket!

In the next breath he stated virtully the same thing for fuel oil.

What he didn't mention was the fact that 51% of all energy used in the US is coal! Thankfully we have tons of the stuff and burn it for electrical generation for almost the entire nation.

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doug_16

But the coal has a big price in

health and worker injury and deaths. The "Clear Skies" will allow even more pollution to spread from the coal generating plants. It is interesting that the energy approach is from the "Let's burn it all" direction rather than from the "Maybe we should find ways to conserve" end.

PJO_5

I went through a similar situation...

> I am a homeowner in Downeast Maine who is

> strongly considering radiant heat for a home we

> are building there. I am convinced of the

> comfort benefit, but would like some basic

> answers about the following:

>

> (1) What is a

> "ball park" estimate of operating cost difference

> [in per cent not actual $] when contrasting

> boilers heated by (a) fuel oil and (b) LP

> gas?

>

> I'm hoping that there are rules of thumb

> for those of you with experience so I can make a

> reasonable choice. Since price of the fuel is a

> key variable, please assume current prices.

> (2) A second key question for me is "should I

> assume any significant savings in operating costs

> for radiant vs baseboard? The home is fairly

> conventional; 2 stories, 2500 ft2 of living

> space, hopefully well insulated, etc

>

> (3)

> Lastly, on a percentage basis, what should I

> expect the system installed purchase price

> difference to be when contrasting BB vs radiant

> assuming the crude statements in (2)

> above?

>

> Any info from you folks on "The Wall"

> is much appreciated!



six years ago.

There are fifteen homes around me; one has fuel oil w/ forced hot air (90%+ furnace) and the rest have LP w/ the same.

I installed radiant on the first floor and garage, and basbeoard upstairs. I also did the extra step of sealing all the wall penetrations as mucha humanly possible. I wish I would have put 2x6's in the exterioir walls, but that's another story...

My energy cost is about half of the average neighbor I have discussed this with, and about 2/3 of the other oil house...and my comfort is unsurpassed. I also leave the majority of my house at about 70F, except for two of the six zones.

I wish I would have had some panel rads through the house, and also a towel warmer here and there...maybe someday.

As others have said, insulate it as well as possible, use heat recovery, put radiant downstairs and rads or baseboard upstairs (if carpetted especially) with setback t-stats, and enjoy the comfort and savings.

PJO_5

I went through a similar situation...

> I am a homeowner in Downeast Maine who is

> strongly considering radiant heat for a home we

> are building there. I am convinced of the

> comfort benefit, but would like some basic

> answers about the following:

>

> (1) What is a

> "ball park" estimate of operating cost difference

> [in per cent not actual $] when contrasting

> boilers heated by (a) fuel oil and (b) LP

> gas?

>

> I'm hoping that there are rules of thumb

> for those of you with experience so I can make a

> reasonable choice. Since price of the fuel is a

> key variable, please assume current prices.

> (2) A second key question for me is "should I

> assume any significant savings in operating costs

> for radiant vs baseboard? The home is fairly

> conventional; 2 stories, 2500 ft2 of living

> space, hopefully well insulated, etc

>

> (3)

> Lastly, on a percentage basis, what should I

> expect the system installed purchase price

> difference to be when contrasting BB vs radiant

> assuming the crude statements in (2)

> above?

>

> Any info from you folks on "The Wall"

> is much appreciated!



six years ago.

There are fifteen homes around me; one has fuel oil w/ forced hot air (90%+ furnace) and the rest have LP w/ the same.

I installed radiant on the first floor and garage, and basbeoard upstairs. I also did the extra step of sealing all the wall penetrations as mucha humanly possible. I wish I would have put 2x6's in the exterioir walls, but that's another story...

My energy cost is about half of the average neighbor I have discussed this with, and about 2/3 of the other oil house...and my comfort is unsurpassed. I also leave the majority of my house at about 70F, except for two of the six zones.

I wish I would have had some panel rads through the house, and also a towel warmer here and there...maybe someday.

As others have said, insulate it as well as possible, use heat recovery, put radiant downstairs and rads or baseboard upstairs (if carpetted especially) with setback t-stats, and enjoy the comfort and savings.

PJO_5

I went through a similar situation...

six years ago.

There are fifteen homes around me; one has fuel oil w/ forced hot air (90%+ furnace) and the rest have LP w/ the same. Mine is a oil-fired boiler.

I installed radiant on the first floor and garage, and baseboard upstairs. I also did the extra step of sealing all the wall penetrations as much as humanly possible. I wish I would have put 2x6's in the exterior walls, but that's another story...

My energy cost is about half of the average neighbor I have discussed this with, and about 2/3 of the other oil house...and my comfort is unsurpassed. I also leave the majority of my house at about 70F, except for two of the six zones.

I wish I would have had some panel rads through the house, and also a towel warmer here and there...maybe someday.

As others have said, insulate it as well as possible, use heat recovery, put radiant downstairs and rads or baseboard upstairs (if carpetted especially) with setback t-stats, and enjoy the comfort and savings.

You should also consider solar if it is possible. I have substansial passive solar, and will get some solar panels next year if I get management approval.

Hope this helps. Take Care, PJO

Uni R

Come on...

Those vacuum insulated panels are R50 and only take up an inch of liviong space. For less than a million (whoops mentioned a price) you could do the whole exterior and basement floor!

Willie Corbett

Thanks to all

I'm not sure who will see this since it's a post to the end of a long trail of responses to my first-ever post, but I just wanted to say "THANK YOU" to everyone who took time to help me. You guys are GREAT!!

eric legacy

Constantine speaks the truth!

Larry_4

oil or gas