Energy efficiency

Mark Hunt

What kind of light bulbs are you all using in your homes?

How old is your refrigerator?

How old is your A/C system? (If applicable)

Do any of you use window A/C units?

How old is your dishwasher? (If applicable)

Question: Which uses more energy, homes and vehicles, or power plants?


Mark H

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Steamhead

My answers:

1. Mostly fluorescent, both traditional straight- and circular-tube and screw-in compact. You can get all of these in color-corrected versions that give off incandescent-like light. And they last much longer- I have some that have been in place over five years.

2. About 15 years or so- was pretty good in its day but newer ones are more efficient. No icemaker by the way- loses less cold thru the solid door.

3. None.

4. None, but a huge old Sears belt-drive window fan.

5. I'm the dishwasher.

6. Given the way you threw in that question I'd say power plants.

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Brad_9

low energy use

We use almost all compact fluorescent (except range hood). Whole house runs on one 30A 120/240v feeder. This would not have to be so large except the county required us to pump our sewer up hill, so have a 3/4hp pump. The well pump uses 300 watts and pumps from 225 ft up to 500 ft of head depending on the well draw down (500 gallon storage tank up the hill, gravity feed to house). Have a solar electric system with 640 watt rating and 24v battery backup. Takes care of maybe 20% of the power in the summer, basically none in the winter. Most effecient fridge available short of using a Sunfrost or chest type, one year old (house is one year old), 14 cu ft (1.2 kwh/day).

Propane (just paid $1.15 gal!) runs the house heat, dryer, cooking, and water heat backup for the solar water heater. Used ~350 gallons for the heating season for 1200 sq ft house.

Human dishwasher, no A/C needed in a well insulated house in western Washington.

Brad

Mark Hunt

Better than most Steamhead!


I have DOE and EPA figures right here in front of me.

So let's see if anyone else answers and I will compare the figures.

BTW, you got it right. Power plants suck up more juice than all the rest. JUST to produce electricity.

Hope we're all using "Energy Star" computers to have this conversation!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Flourecent bulbs


Save a bunch of electricity. I use them, no complaints.


Mark H

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Murph'_5

light bulbs ???!!

Uhhhhhhhhh, nevermind !!



Murph'

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Boilerpro_3

Energy and another question

Compact color corrected flourescents (the best I've seen are by Phillips).

Fridge is 1 1/2 years old. Replaced model from 1973.

Use 2 window units for cooling (one seer 9.2, the other 10 or 11)for a total of 1 1/2 tons for cooling 2,800 sq ft here in humid Northern IL. These cost about $150 to $200 per year @ about $0.12/kw to cool complete home (including some fans to move the air around and for ventilation).

Dishwasher is about 4 months old, Washer about 4 months old

Definitely power generating and distribution. The numbers I remember are that the overall efficiency of our electrical system is about 25 to 30 percent... less than the 35% efficiency of typical automobile engines.

How bout this. Despite the fact that the average fuel economy of all vehicles in the US has doubled since the early 70's, we still use the same amount of vehicle fuel per person!

Here's another question.... What is the quickest and easiest way we, as a country, can reduce energy usage?


Boilerpro

Kal Row

ok here goes

all electronic florescent

new, energy star (new one saves $10 per month)

12.6 seer - central

11.6 seer window to maintain/dehumidify once the central has cooled the house

no dishes - deposable plastic - great for disease control, bad for the env

power plants - for sure -
also, hybrid electric cars are as good or better than fuel cells - cause the process of producing and delivering the fuel cell's fuel, mitigates it's economy or env protection

kal – if I could only drag my butt off the wall….there is real savings!!!


ps electronic fluorescents have a unique failure mode not possible with other types - others just fail - electronic ones can short on one side of the ac cycle, and draw lots of current without popping the breaker - and can run you up a hell of electric bill – and the power company really hates it when you “draw dc” (their slang for using half a cycle)
rule: if it's week or noisy, chuck it, stat!!!

Kal Row

forgot to mention, i don't have a @#$^&amp;*~ TV

John Mills_3

answers

1. Mostly incandescent but a few compact fluorescent
2. Icebox is 8 years old
3. HP is 10 years old, 13 SEER on variable speed blower
4. no
5. Around 10 years old
6. Power plants I would think

Constantin

More answers...

1) A mixture of incandescent, flourescent, and compact flourescent. Wherever flourescent and compact flourescent can be installed, they are. Elsewhere, it's incandescent. The new house will have CF almost exclusively.

2) Fridge is from 1999. However, it's a 2001-compliant model. Our electricity bill went down $35 a month upon installation. 3-year payback, not bad!

3) AC is a year-old 5000BTU, 11.2EER windowshaker. Just for the bedroom when things get unbearable around here. The new house will have a combo of 15+ SEER units keeping it comfortable.

4) Dishwasher is presently human. From what I recall, I will save a lot of water + energy when we switch to a mechanical one in the new house.

5) Probably power plants.

jerry scharf_2

soapbox time

You really opened pandora's box on this one.

I use fluorescents wherever I can. I love lighting, and IMO there are any number of places where fluorescent lights have neither the dimming range, color rendition nor the esthetics that I like. I'm about 80% fluorescent at this point.

energy star fridge and freezer. Freezer is manual defrost (that can account for a bunch of energy.)

Putting in the most efficient A/C unit I found, www.freus.com. The unit rates at EER of 18 and SEER in the low 20s. I have an air-air as a backup for power outage situations (my computers like it cool.)

Bosch energy star rated dishwasher. Washer is a Fisher-paykel top load (simply brilliant design.)

Power generation and especially transmission loses a whole lot of power. Localized gas turbine of fuel cell seem the best current option, though it drives up the cost of natural gas.

Photovoltaics, IMO, still need to come down in price and up in efficiency to carry more of the load. There is steady progress on this front and I am quite hopeful. Check out www.sunpowercorp.com for one group pushing the curve.

jerry

Christian Egli

Everything new...some time ago

Hello, here are my answers to your interesting survey. For a start I want to say that I do not ever believe anything the EPA says. The stickers they make appliance manufacturers glue on their products are a waste of trees and an unnecessary source of pollution. The methods and the numbers they use are completely bogus, it is just insulting.

The only way to know what is going on is to make the measurements yourself in your home and according to your use.

1) All light bulbs are compact fluorescent (since the 80s) except for incandescent accent lighting on dimmers. I am waiting for the prices of LED light bulbs to go down, today they are still not a good value, unless you count your time at $200 an hour changing the bulbs. Bathrooms and kitchen have 40 W fluorescent tubes.

2) New fridge in 1988, we clean out the heat exchanger in the back and under twice a year to make sure it runs efficiently.

3) New central AC in 1964, same thing, we keep coils clean and free of dust, bugs and weeds. I would like to go to some room or window units to save on the cost of cooling the entire home.

4) New dishwasher in 1990. It has water heating and drying features that get dishes clean and spotless but are unnecessary. I have noticed that we get very good results by using enough powder, that is a full scoop, no skimping, and as far as the rinse juice you can buy, that seems useless, our juice dispenser is broken for a while now and nobody noticed. So we save on rinse juice.

5) We spend most money on home heating and cooling first, second goes to gasoline and third for home electric use, but that doesn't answer your question about energy.

Neat survey. By the way, what about washers and dryers and hot water heaters?

Mark Hunt

Very good observation!


Let's bring those in as well!



Mark H

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Glenn Harrison_2

Light bulbs are mostly flourescent, or Halogen on dimmers.

Refrigerator, Washer, Gas Dryer, and Dishwasher are all 9 years old. Gas Range is about 15 years old. Gas Water Heater is 12 years old.

Gas central furnace is 8 years old 80% AFUE

Central Air is 26 years old. (Really need to replace it SOON)

No window shakers.

I want to say our work trucks, and SUV's use more energy, but I know that power plants use more.

Constantin

Allow me to disagree with one of your statements

Having worked on setting US energy efficiency standards, I find your observation re: EPA stickers (actually DoE, but who cares) to be flippant, at best.

There are a lot of very dedicated people trying to drag this country towards a more energy-efficient future. However flawed certain energy-efficiency methodologies may be, the most important factor is establishing a national benchmark that everyone can follow. Instead simply dismissing the hard-won efforts, I suggest you go to DC to the rulemakings and make suggestions. They may listen to you, believe it or not, if you can show a improvement to their measurement systems.

Perhaps you touched a nerve in me when you made that statement, so perhaps I'm over-reacting. On the other hand, I am very proud to have been part of three energy-efficiency rulemakings such as the coming residential 13SEER AC/HP standards. As of 2001 the residental AC/HP standards had a NPV of $12BN (factoring purchase cost, operating costs, effects on industry valuation, etc.). If energy prices rise instead of falling between 2001 and 2006, the payoff is even greater.

Were it not for DoE efforts like this one, the energy consumption of this country would be even more gluttonous. You may be correct that the Energyguide stickers are not representative of the savings you experienced. However, that does not discount them as an excellent tool for buyers to compare the relative (not absolute) efficiency of each appliance.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

1) Mostly incandescent in room permanent fixtures, mostly fluorescents (compact & tubes) in lamps, closets, basement. When I finally get my kitchen done it will have indirect dimmable fluorescent for general illumination. I kind of have thing for high-end lighting and most need dimmers and don't work well/look right with compact fluorescents. Color rendition is getting better, but it's still not well-suited for my artistic side.

Anyone know of a compact fluorescent with light output comparable to a 25-watt incandescent? I have 12 outside (6 are mainly decorative, the rest light steps/staircases) and 7 inside in recessed lighting for stairs. That's almost 500 watts and I'd really like to reduce if I could find appropriate replacements. (Light output in decor/safety lighing is REALLY finicky as to level--too much is actually worse than none at all.)

Old house with abundance of large windows and transoms properly used for natural light. Next to compact baths, lighting is my favorite part of design--most every non-storage space has general, task and accent/mood lighting.

2) Frig/freezer I'm using new this winter, but when kitchen is done it will have a 1980s Sub-Zero (frig only) that I got for next to nothing from a bank executive conference room remodeling. "Cube" frig in master suite closet (by my office) about 3 years old.

3) A/C systems 2-5 years old--12 SEER--the max recommended by many in my area for traditional ducted system due to excessive humidity. "Zoned" with multiple units. Unico to go in this summer on ground floor--it will have a higher efficiency condensing unit (probably around 15 SEER).

4) N/A

5) Dishwasher a 1990s commercial S/S inner tub Kitchenaid "rescued" from a University surplus auction. It may use too much water, but you only have to scrape (not pre-rinse) and it certainly took a lot of energy to build and will last a LONG time. Clothes washers commercial Maytags; driers commercial natural gas also rescued (at $2.00 each! [double stacked drier counted as 1]) from University auction as well.

Even though power plants loose energy through conversion and transmission and most of their output probably goes to industry, homes AND all vehicles might well use more.

Not counting space heating/cooling, my computer & phone system are likely the largest energy consumer in my house. Big CRT, big laser printer, scanner, dot matrix printer, label printer, bubblejet printer, DSL modem, UPS, weather/temperature data logger, optical mouse, KSU (phone system "brain") and voice mail system all add up even if they are "energy star".

Christian Egli

Just being upset

Sorry about mixing up different government agencies, I'll admit it is not something I follow. As far as suggestions, I think getting completely rid of the EPA would be a good thing, here is my reasoning:

In this county here, we have to get all automobiles inspected by the EPA to see if they "pollute". In May all commercial vehicles get checked, for us it is a huge cost driving forth and back to the test station, waiting idling plus warming up the engine for a half hour which they say you need for an effective test. Needless to say, besides the expensive fees, it costs much time and FUEL, add to that yet the fuel burned to heat and cool the EPA test station and their big regional headquarters and you get a big waste of energy, all in the name of what? taking those few drivers off the road that do not maintain their vehicles at all.

To pay for all of this, I'll have to work more which means I'll be using even more fuel. Sounds absurd? here's more: in this state, people who live in the capital, our biggest city, are not subject to this EPA test. They so-called have no car pollution over there, they do have politics though.

What I am driving at, is that state agencies add politics to matters of science and facts with the end result of making all things simple more confusing. I am not so sure we need more of that, individuals in a free market are fully apt at making the best decisions for themselves.

Now, if we could just get a law passed that would force every home owner to buy and install a boiler...

Lastly, I'll agree with you that the DoE does do interesting things. I myself worked on a research project for the DoE, and, like you, I was proud of my work.

It occurred to me, from other posts of yours, that you might be from Europe. If so, what do you think of steam heat? as it is not done in residential applications over there.

Best regards.

Mark Hunt

OK everyone


all great responses!

Next question(s).

How many of you contractors offer OTHER energy saving tips to your customers?

Do you check the insulation levels in the home? Do you look at the electric appliances in the home and suggest updating that equipment?

Should we as HVAC contractors concern ourselves with dishwashers and refrigerators etc? Or do we address only the equipment that we sell and service?

Have you ever told a customer that they would be better served by increasing the thermal boundry in their home instead of replacing a piece of heating or cooling equipment?

How many of you network with shell contractors in your area?

Would any of you consider handing out Energy Star light bulbs with every boiler you sell?

Should we be the ones promoting energy conservation?

Mark H

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Quickest/Easiest Way Already Done in Most States

Daylight Savings Time

After that...

Ban the use of asphalt shingles for structures occupied by humans.

Constantin

Even the EPA does good things

There are always going to be rules and regulations that federal agencies create that run counter to common sense. The EPA unfortunately is one of those agencies that has to navigate the tricky waters between federal laws (mandates from Congress) and local sovereignity (i.e. getting the states to play along, one by one).

The emissions tests for cars are a perfect example how Congress, not the EPA mucked it up. Instead of establishing a common standard, Congress simply put the EPA in charge of working with states to reduce air pollution. In the case of MA, they do it largely by the numbers, i.e. they fail an average of 10% of the cars. The new test is 2x more expensive and depends largely on the on-board computer system in cars telling the tester that combustion is bad, not the other way around!

IIRC, the MA test does not seem to actually test vehicles for the many gases, etc. that bad combustion or a shot catalytic converter allows to escape, rather it assumes that there is a correlation between cars with trouble codes and bad emissions. Naturally, this may or may not be the case. Now the state and the EPA are haggling over the program since it appears that the MA test is not meeting many mandates.

So, who is at fault? Congress for passing the law, the EPA for allowing MA to get away with a shoddy test, or MA for creating a shoddy test? I would argue that both Congress and MA is at fault here, since they decided to take a shortcut instead of creating a comprehensive (and perhaps even more expensive) test. In Germany, the feds created a federal standard that has to be upheld in every state. It's a very strict test and many older vehicles will fail it. Due to our history, the US is very reluctant to adopt federal standards.

So I agree with you is that politics will invariably influence the outcome to the point where scientific proof takes a second seat to vested interests. However, I do not agree that the EPA is useless or that it did not achieve a number of notable successes. For example, we may not agree on how Superfund sites get their funding or how some very large corporations may get indicted but then get away when an administration comes along that quietly drops the charges in return for soft money. However, cleaning up superfund sites and lesser disasters has been done at great expense and benefit to this country.

Here is another exmple: Were it not for Mr. Busch's initiatives, the EPA would have sued a great deal of powerplant operators in the Midwest for actively fudging "investments" versus "repairs" to skirt emissions requirements (i.e. upgrading their plants to scrub the exhaust). And, until Congress madates it, the EPA will not force homeowners and the like to show that their appliances are burning cleanly. Instead, we rely on delivering well-set-up appliances to consumers who will then (presumably) take care of them.

As for my origin, I was born and raised a good bit in Germany. Don't assume that steam is only used to transfer heat to buildings via the city heating plant though. I have a second and third degree burn on my left hand to prove that super-heated steam was also used to heat individual apartments over there as well. That's what happens when a shoe inlay falls behind a radiator and Constantin learns a life lesson by reaching through the radiator instead of under it. The watch I was wearing allowed the hand to go in but not out. I now only wear non-metallic watchbands.. and stay away from steam radiators when they are operating.

Constantin

Easiest way to increase efficiency?

How about switching more cars to Diesel, perhaps even Diesel hybrids. Minimum ~30% savings there.

Siting energy production where it is needed, not where NIMBY makes it least offensive. Don't like the look of a power plant? then USE LESS ENERGY! Thereby reduce transmission losses 5-10%.

Require energy efficiency in home construction, rennovation, etc. This is already done on a piecemeal basis though.

However, the most efficient means is simply making energy more expensive. Market forces really work to increase efficiency, reduce excesses, when the pocketbook really starts to get hammered. Note the precipetous drop in resale value of many SUVs as a result of the current gas price crisis (if you want to call it that).

High gas taxes is why Europeans tend to drive smaller, more efficient cars. High energy prices is why they tend to conserve energy. Simple, isn't it? Yet, I'd like to see what politician wants to commit career suicide by increasing gas prices to $5/gallon.

ed wallace

enery effiency

i guess constintin will be using goodman condensers with his new heat since they have the highest seer offered and they are american made

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Kal Row

ok: answers


--I proselytize energy saving

--since I always do a heat-loss insulation check is part of it

--my most common appliance rec, is for new fridge – since any non energy-star fridge is robbing you blind

--dishwashers for hot water load, refrigerators for ducting to insure that there getting cool air in the summertime

--“thermal boundry” you got-da be kidding, we are only there because, there already is a problem, nobody calls us for fun - also it's rarely pratical without major renovation - only vinyl dbl-windows can be done on the cheap, however, a customer with "shteem" problems, can almos always be solved with, new vents throughout, water cut/feeder, return flush, and new windows


--I keep turning them down,

--No!!! - A real Professional – stays above even a suspicion of gimmickry or anything else unseemly

--Only if the dpt of energy gave us cash incentives

Steamhead

Look for a 5- or 7-watt unit

with a Color Rendering Index of at least 80, and to simulate incandescent light you want a Color Temperature of 3000 degrees K (for Kelvin). Once in a while you see them at Home Cheepo, but you can get them online too. Try:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category.php?category=1

or

http://www.bulbs.com/

I've had good results ordering from these sites.

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Constantin

Huh?

Ed, I'm not really sure how to evaluate the above. I haven't made a choice yet re: the AC system, though as you know I'm leaning towards a 3 condenser system (@ 2 tons ea.) to keep the ductwork down to a dull roar.

What makes you say that goodman offers the highest seer? I thought Lennox, Carrier, et al carry that crown somewhere in the vicinity of 20 SEER, not the rather pedestrian 16 SEER the Ultron etc. series that Goodman offers. Or is there something I'm missing here?

S Ebels

Here goes (with a few extras)

Bulbs: Mostly incans', most on dimmers, balance are halogen. Outdoor lighting is solar.

Fridge: An energy sucking, heat generating, constantly running 80's vintage Whirlpool w/ ice and water in the door and an icemaker that has NEVER worked correctly. Slated for replacement this summer.

A/C: Don't have it, don't like it, too much crap growing in there unless you give it constant attention or use an energy consuming ultraviolet light to kill off what's in the air. We have ceiling fans and a whole house exhaust system. Poor investment for the two weeks we need it here in Northern Lower Michigan IMHO.

Dishwasher: She's 48 and is still worth keeping around. Seriously, Kitchenaid 1998 model

Washing machine and dryer: Whirlpool, new last year. Washer is the Calypso series with all electronic control, spins clothes out so dry you can darn near put 'em on W/O running them in the dryer. Uses at least 30% less water than a typical washer. Dryer is natural gas with electronic sensor to eliminate overdrying. Twice, yes, darn near twice, as fast as the old dryer partly due to the washing machine hyper spin cycle.

Range: Electric, the dishwasher doesn't like gas.

Boiler: Viessmann Vitola, Natural gas fired with variable water temp control. Water temp never exceeded 160* this winter even in DHW heating mode. Cut my gas usage 20% compared to the old Smith. Combustion tests 85 to 90% depending on boiler water temp.

Water heater: 30 gallon Superstore indirect, 9 years old

Heating system: Combination of Radson panel radiators and Climate Panel (475 sq ft). A KEY POINT HERE........ Each of the 12 rooms in this shack is controlled by it's own thermostat. Having the option to individually adjust each room gives me the capability to save a BUNCH on energy costs and consumption. Bathrooms 75*, entry 60*, kitchen 67*, living room 72*, bedrooms 63* etc, etc. The Vitotronic is programmed to set the whole place back 6* during unoccupied and sleeping time periods. DHW production also shuts down from 9PM to 5AM automatically.

Windows, Insulation and Doors: Hurd wood casement windows and Peachtree steel/foam entry doors. Wrapped the whole exterior with Tyvek after stripping it down to the sheeting, then 1/2" blueboard with taped seams. Blew every thing I could get into full of cellulose.

Have to go with power plants for the simple fact that the energy they produce FOR homes and cars is generally done at around 30-35% accounting for transmission losses, burner and generating inefficiencies.

BTW: I almost always point out areas where a homeowner can cut down his/her energy consumption. It's just common courtesy and it let's them know I care about them even when I don't actually get paid for being observant. It's NOT all about the money you know.

Howzzat Mr Hunt?

Philip Nasadowski

>What kind of light bulbs are you all using in your homes?

A mix of incedescent, flourescent, compact flourescent. The latter two are being used more and more in constant on applications - I've noted a startup time on CFs that makes them less desireable for places where the lights go on then off again (hallways, basement entrance, etc)

>How old is your refrigerator?

Ouch. Mid 90's GE top/bottom. Was supposedly to be good for it's time.

>How old is your A/C system? (If applicable)

Late 90's Rheem, 11 or 12 SEER, IIRC. Replaced an early 70's vintage Heil with the variable speed condensor fan (which blew out long ago, so it was bypassed to run full speed)

Heat is a new Burnham, and yes, we replaced the old B&G 100s with Tacos - I can't believe how quiet those things are Vs the old B&Gs. You seriously can barely hear them running, period. Even standing next to the system.

Hot water's an AO Smith tank (1 year old). I'm waiting for the 'honest, we fixed it!' plastic dip tube to break up like the old Rheem (Ream?) one did...

>Do any of you use window A/C units?

No. We've got central attic fan though. Someone said they have that big old sears one - is it the belt drive with the timers and all? Those were cool

>How old is your dishwasher? (If applicable)

It's a POS Whirlpool from the 90's. The plastic wonderwasher.

>Question: Which uses more energy, homes and vehicles, or power plants?

Oooo Ooo, power plants? What I love is around here, the largest they can install without the EIS stuff is 88MW. But the nice, really efficient combined cycle plants are all bigger than that. So, we get smaller, less efficient plants to avoid the years of paperwork, NIMBY, etc.

I live within walking distance of 4 gas turbine and 2 regular steam generators. Take a guess which ones I can hear at my door step, if they're all running.

Boilerpro_3

And the answer is

using the appropriate energy source to the appropriate end use. In the only study ever made of energy use (I believe this is still true) in the US, completed in the late 1970's by Amory Lovins, he found that simply swithing to appropriate energy types to end uses would would cut our every usage by about 50%. I suspect with the percieved reduction in use of electricity for space heating (and the closure of our local electric furnace equipped steel mill which used the output of 2 nuclear reactors) this figure might not be as great anymore, but it does get one thinking.

Boilerpro

Steamhead

Yes, it's belt-drive

But not the one with the built-in timer. I got a plug-in timer for it.

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jerry scharf_2

A/C options

Constantin,

You might want to check out www.freus.com if you need to run multiple condensors. They have very high EER and can put multiple condensors in a single cabinet. It's partly dependent on how humid the air is during the cooling season, but it's certainly worth a look.

jerry

Cliff Brady

Email me for a quote

Constantin,

Email me and I can send you literature on the Freus Condensor as well as a quote for a 3 x 2 Ton Unit.

Cliff

David_5

answers

2/3 incandesnt, 1/3 florescent

21 year old refrigerator, ice and water in the door, but don't work. When it quits we'll replace.

2 a/c's, 1)12 seer is 9 years old. 1) 10 seer 2 years old. Both central.

Dishwasher is about 12.

Higheset use first power plants, cars, homes

David

DaveGateway

Some mini-flourecent bulbs suck

I put about 75 of the ceiling cans that use the mini-flourecent spiral bulbs in my new home, trying to save on electric bills.
Suppose to last 7 yrs! B/S The Feit brand is krap, dropping like flys. The Commercial Electric brand is not much better, lasting only about 1-2 yrs at only 2-4hrs/day.
BP

Philip Nasadowski

CFs..

We have the ones from home depot here - they suck. noisy, dim.

I used GE (Osram?) at in my Hartford apt. Very nice, but they didn't last more than 2 years. Oh yes, and they're *scary* when they go bad. *BuuuzzzzzzzPOP* I jumped the first time one went. Weird to - just working fine then *boom*.

It's great idea, but the tech's still got a way to go